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Complimentary TM-Town membership for ProZ.com members
Thread poster: Jared Tabor
Matthias Brombach
Matthias Brombach  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 00:49
Member (2007)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Lucky times! Apr 29, 2016

Kevin Dias wrote:

I can understand your perspective. However, just because there is a vocal minority who feel a certain way, does not mean all translators share those opinions.
I realize you see no use in them, but it doesn't mean that other translators don't find value there.




Apart from a perhaps useful offline feature of your concept I never would trust my (and my client´s data) to an online system, which may be hacked one day without noticing it (assuming including you not noticing it), in order to feed MT training systems nevertheless.


(I look at the usage stats every day. If translators weren't using a feature we would get rid of it).


I do observe the run of translators to your system too, especially after proz has sent a mail not to forget to sign in for a free access to TM Town until end of this month. A couple of years ago there was (and still is) such a run of translators to Facebook and others "Alternatives" to Proz: It is just a sign, that our "industry" experiences a massiv surplus of (halfway desperate) translators, who will take any opportunity to get a foot into this business as well, be it by signing in for multiple (paid) online plattforms, by purchasing at least three CAT tools, using MT-APIs and, of course, by offering "best prices". Lucky times for clever suppliers of translation oriented tools and services...

[Edited at 2016-04-29 10:09 GMT]


 
Ward Whittaker
Ward Whittaker  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 20:49
Portuguese to English
And what about the NDAs that we have with our clients? Apr 29, 2016

One of the other things that nobody seems to be talking about here is that by uploading our TMs or translation data, we could very easily be violating our existing NDAs.

I for one take confidentiality very seriously and would be very dubious about giving anybody my TMs. I don't think any of the agency's clients I work for would be happy with me releasing "their translation" into the public domain.


 
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 00:49
Member (2008)
English to Czech
SITE LOCALIZER
facts Apr 29, 2016

As a freelance translator, I am entitled to handle my computer and the data on it as I see fit, and after having carefully assessed TM-Town prior to using it, I feel that uploading my own TMs to it in no way constitutes a confidentiality risk.

Your own TMs? Even if I abandon, merely for the purpose of this paragraph, the idea that confidentiality applies by default (not only with NDA etc., but simply as a professional standard) to all translation work: How does the source part of TM become a property of the translator? Did those clients of yours, whose source texts you are using in TM Town and which are not from public domain, verbatim waivered their IP rights for the source text? If they did then kudos to you. But how many users using TM Town to save initially confidential TMs took the same precaution?

That is, I am entirely certain that my clients' data is secure. Just as the doubting Thomases are entitled to their endless fear and paranoia, I am entitled to my trust. They have assessed it, and find it lacking. I have assessed it, and believe it is safe.

There is no endless fear and paranoia, mind your words. I'm not scared. I only address the information about a service, information which I perceive kind of negative in regards to confidentiality, that is all. Just like a 10-euro banknote is simply a 10-euro banknote, so TM Town can be used (not with that intent, but with that result) to share confidential documents without client's approval - and anyone's joy or fear change nothing about such possibility. So won't the Deshi option etc.

This is not about whether the data are secure or not. Confidentiality and security are two different things. No matter how secure, TM Town provides an opportunity to violate (even if not intentionally) confidentiality. Breach of confidentiality doesn't happen at the point when someone else would actually take (steal) the data from an unapproved third party. It happens already when they are provided to such an unapproved party.

This is about two things (not feelings):
1) TM Town allows users to share TMs which, at the very least in case of source text (but typically also in case of target), are confidential unless from public source or unless otherwise agreed.

2) ProZ, now owning TM Town, endorses (and users who accepted the ProZ professional guidelines - I assume majority of active ProZ members did that - endorse the same) confidentiality of sensitive information and taking steps to protect that confidentiality.

Point 1 can lead to confidentiality violation. (Given the high number of uploaded TUs - especially when public TMs are excluded from that count - at some translators, breach of confidentiality seems to be more likely. Another factor is the connection to ProZ which can reduce caution.)

With that possibility, points 1+2 seem to be in some kind of contradiction (endorsing a service which can be used to share confidential TMs vs. endorsing confidentiality and protection of confidential TMs).

If anyone violates confidentiality one way or another, that's indeed their own choice. (That is, if they are actually aware of violating it.) I only find it a bit unfortunate that a professional platform like ProZ promotes a solution which, in quite a straightforward manner, allows that to happen.


 
Michael Beijer
Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:49
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
:| Apr 29, 2016

Ward Whittaker wrote:

One of the other things that nobody seems to be talking about here is that by uploading our TMs or translation data, we could very easily be violating our existing NDAs.

I for one take confidentiality very seriously and would be very dubious about giving anybody my TMs. I don't think any of the agency's clients I work for would be happy with me releasing "their translation" into the public domain.


Uploading a TM to TM-Town in no way constitutes "releasing it into the public domain". It isn't much different than sending or receiving it via 99% of email providers. It's all private and locked down behind passwords and various layers of security.

MJWB

[Edited at 2016-04-29 19:30 GMT]


 
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 00:49
Member (2008)
English to Czech
SITE LOCALIZER
NDAs Apr 29, 2016

Ward Whittaker wrote:
One of the other things that nobody seems to be talking about here is that by uploading our TMs or translation data, we could very easily be violating our existing NDAs.

Actually this was already discussed here a few days/pages ago.

The TM Town developer said:
"For the majority of translation jobs that translators do on a daily basis, 100% of the translation IS NOT confidential (of course there could be exceptions such as government jobs, medical records, etc.)."
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translator_coop/300979-complimentary_tm_town_membership_for_prozcom_members-page7.html#2546521

One translator said:
"...for many of us, confidentiality does not involve NDA's - it is in the code of ethics of our profession, period. I signed a code of ethics with my professional organization when I was awarded certified status, and confidentiality is in there. Even if it were not, my own personal ethics would not allow me to violate confidentiality regardless of whether a client stipulates it in an NDA. The majority of my clients do not have me sign an NDA. They simply assume that those kinds of standards exist."
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translator_coop/300979-complimentary_tm_town_membership_for_prozcom_members-page8.html#2547196


 
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 00:49
Member (2008)
English to Czech
SITE LOCALIZER
again Apr 29, 2016

"It isn't much different than sending or receiving it via 99% of email providers."

Unlike uploading TMs to TM Town, e-mails are tacitly (at the very least) approved by clients themselves when they use them to make an order and provide the files.


 
..... (X)
..... (X)
Local time: 08:49
??? Apr 29, 2016

Ward Whittaker wrote:
One of the other things that nobody seems to be talking about here is that by uploading our TMs or translation data, we could very easily be violating our existing NDAs.


This has been discussed previously in this thread. Please see Deshi for more info.

Ward Whittaker wrote:
I don't think any of the agency's clients I work for would be happy with me releasing "their translation" into the public domain.


Nothing is getting "released into the public domain". Documents you upload to TM-Town are private and are never made public.


[Edited at 2016-04-29 20:13 GMT]


 
Michael Beijer
Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:49
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
I'd like to see some proof of all of your wild allegations. Apr 29, 2016

Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:

As a freelance translator, I am entitled to handle my computer and the data on it as I see fit, and after having carefully assessed TM-Town prior to using it, I feel that uploading my own TMs to it in no way constitutes a confidentiality risk.

Your own TMs? Even if I abandon, merely for the purpose of this paragraph, the idea that confidentiality applies by default (not only with NDA etc., but simply as a professional standard) to all translation work: How does the source part of TM become a property of the translator? Did those clients of yours, whose source texts you are using in TM Town and which are not from public domain, verbatim waivered their IP rights for the source text? If they did then kudos to you. But how many users using TM Town to save initially confidential TMs took the same precaution?

That is, I am entirely certain that my clients' data is secure. Just as the doubting Thomases are entitled to their endless fear and paranoia, I am entitled to my trust. They have assessed it, and find it lacking. I have assessed it, and believe it is safe.

There is no endless fear and paranoia, mind your words. I'm not scared. I only address the information about a service, information which I perceive kind of negative in regards to confidentiality, that is all. Just like a 10-euro banknote is simply a 10-euro banknote, so TM Town can be used (not with that intent, but with that result) to share confidential documents without client's approval - and anyone's joy or fear change nothing about such possibility. So won't the Deshi option etc. [Deshi completely removes the possibility of violating NDAs]

This is not about whether the data are secure or not. Confidentiality and security are two different things. No matter how secure, TM Town provides an opportunity to violate (even if not intentionally) confidentiality. Breach of confidentiality doesn't happen at the point when someone else would actually take (steal) the data from an unapproved third party. It happens already when they are provided to such an unapproved party. [I disagree. The online and local tools and services I use in my own business, are my own business. Period. If my client doesn't trust that I know what I am doing in terms of my ability to ensure none of their material gets into the wrong hands, they can find another translator.]

This is about two things (not feelings):
1) TM Town allows users to share TMs which, at the very least in case of source text (but typically also in case of target), are confidential unless from public source or unless otherwise agreed.

2) ProZ, now owning TM Town, endorses (and users who accepted the ProZ professional guidelines - I assume majority of active ProZ members did that - endorse the same) confidentiality of sensitive information and taking steps to protect that confidentiality. [TM-Town takes sufficient steps to protect the confidentiality of the data we provide it with.]

Point 1 can lead to confidentiality violation. (Given the high number of uploaded TUs - especially when public TMs are excluded from that count - at some translators, breach of confidentiality seems to be more likely. Another factor is the connection to ProZ which can reduce caution.)

With that possibility, points 1+2 seem to be in some kind of contradiction (endorsing a service which can be used to share confidential TMs vs. endorsing confidentiality and protection of confidential TMs).

If anyone violates confidentiality one way or another, that's indeed their own choice. (That is, if they are actually aware of violating it.) I only find it a bit unfortunate that a professional platform like ProZ promotes a solution which, in quite a straightforward manner, allows that to happen. [That's nonsense. Proz.com in no way "promotes a solution which, in quite a straightforward manner, allows [specific provisions in NDAs regarding data confidentiality to be breached] ..."


You say many things, but can you prove (citing relevant legislation in any of the countries I work in/via; The Netherlands, Belgium, the UK, etc.) that uploading my TMXs to a service such a TM-Town*, which in my opinion has perfectly adequate security features in place (see links below), constitutes a violation of a specific NDA? I think not.

* The same applies to using: Dropbox, Google Drive, Gmail (or Google Apps for Work), Yahoo Mail, CrashPlan, Google Translate via the paid API + a CAT tool plugin, etc.

MJWB

See:

• "TM-Town Content Confidentiality and Data Usage Policies": https://www.tm-town.com/terms-of-service
• "Security": https://www.tm-town.com/security
• "AWS Cloud Security": https://aws.amazon.com/security/

[Edited at 2016-04-29 19:57 GMT]


 
Michael Beijer
Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:49
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
(the sad truth is that) no one is interested in our TMs Apr 29, 2016

One thing that many people seem to be worried about is that TM-Town is going to secretly start using their TMs to feed machine translation engines, or, what is more likely, try to sell them to someone who has one and is in need of data. I can tell you from my own personal experience that this is highly unlikely. I have been building my own personal MT engines now for several months (using the exce... See more
One thing that many people seem to be worried about is that TM-Town is going to secretly start using their TMs to feed machine translation engines, or, what is more likely, try to sell them to someone who has one and is in need of data. I can tell you from my own personal experience that this is highly unlikely. I have been building my own personal MT engines now for several months (using the excellent Windows GUI to access Moses: Slate Desktop), and even though I have masses of data to play around with on my computer (some of it my own, and a ton of public data), I find that it is very, very hard to produce an engine that can even approximate the quality of Google Translate. So what is my point here? I doubt there is much financial value in our TMs in terms of using them to feed MT engines.

Then there is of course the point that I always make when people say we shouldn't use Google Translate because Google might be doing evil things with our data. Google would be insane to do so. If they got caught, they would be in a whole world of pain. It just doesn't make sense from a risk perspective.

MJWB

[Edited at 2016-04-29 20:38 GMT]
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Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 00:49
Member (2008)
English to Czech
SITE LOCALIZER
context Apr 30, 2016

Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:
TM Town can be used (not with that intent, but with that result) to share confidential documents without client's approval - and anyone's joy or fear change nothing about such possibility. So won't the Deshi option etc. [Deshi completely removes the possibility of violating NDAs]

"Such possibility" referred to "TM Town can be used" (emhpasis on "can"), not to various methods offered by TM Town.
Deshi is one of the choices, not the only choice. This was already discussed here a few days ago.

If my client doesn't trust that I know what I am doing in terms of my ability to ensure none of their material gets into the wrong hands, they can find another translator.

The question is not if they trust you or not. The question is if they explicitly/implicitly approve or are made aware where are their materials going. What are they legitimate expectations. One of the things I agree on with Kevin is asking the client in case of unclarity - not assuming "yes" by default.

ProZ, now owning TM Town, endorses (and users who accepted the ProZ professional guidelines - I assume majority of active ProZ members did that - endorse the same) confidentiality of sensitive information and taking steps to protect that confidentiality. [TM-Town takes sufficient steps to protect the confidentiality of the data we provide it with.]

Confidentiality may be violated already by the fact that the data get into TM Town hands. It is not a matter of good or wrong hands. It is a matter of "foreign" hands. (And, before another comparison to e-mail is made - that is different through direct, conscious use of it by the client.)

If anyone violates confidentiality one way or another, that's indeed their own choice. (That is, if they are actually aware of violating it.) I only find it a bit unfortunate that a professional platform like ProZ promotes a solution which, in quite a straightforward manner, allows that to happen. [That's nonsense. Proz.com in no way "promotes a solution which, in quite a straightforward manner, allows [specific provisions in NDAs regarding data confidentiality to be breached] ..."

I nowhere talked about "specific provisions in NDAs regarding data confidentiality to be breached" so I'm not sure what are you trying to object to, apart for your own convenient construction.

ProZ promotes TM Town. TM Town allows uploading of TMs. This can mean violation of confidentiality. (With or without NDA - not having an NDA doesn't mean I can do whatever I want with the files. I think non-NDA cases are more prone to confidentiality violation, as NDAs usually specify the conditions, plus having any NDA may actually support caution.)

You say many things, but can you prove (citing relevant legislation in any of the countries I work in/via; The Netherlands, Belgium, the UK, etc.) that uploading my TMXs to a service such a TM-Town, which in my opinion has perfectly adequate security features in place (see links below), constitutes a violation of a specific NDA? I think not.

First, NDA is violated (or not) irrespective of legislation.
Second, you want me to evaluate a specific NDA without providing that specific NDA? Then yeah, you are right, I cannot do that. :)

Anyway, if that specific NDA would say that the use of online storages is allowed, or anything to the same effect, then it indeed wouldn't be violated. But if there is no such permission (including when there is no NDA), or if it is prohibited, then I see a problem. If you don't, so be it, I'm not requesting anyone to have the same view as me, and I don't need to label other views as wild or nonsensical just because they are different. :)

An example - let me quote from one NDA of mine:
"The party will not disclose any of the party’s Confidential Information to employees or to any third parties except to the party’s employees who have a need to know such information in connection with the Purpose and have agreed to abide by nondisclosure terms at least as protective of the party’s Confidential Information as those set forth herein.
Subject to the secrecy obligation is the Confidential Information, including but not limited to, all documents, materials, correspondence, drawings, data, articles etc. which already have been or will be provided to each party or of which each party gains knowledge of otherwise."

PS Again, security and confidentiality are two different things. If a translator invited a competitor of his client to an underground concrete bunker with top-grade security, they would be very safe - and at the same time the translator could share the documents for translation with the competitor.


 
Ward Whittaker
Ward Whittaker  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 20:49
Portuguese to English
FOOEY Apr 30, 2016

Everybody here is saying that our TMs will be safe, locked down, confidential and "private, never to be made public". To that I say FOOEY !

That may be the promise "at this time" but once those TMs and glossaries are out of our own control, I don't care what anybody says, the risk is there that they can be manipulated into a different form and\or used to benefit someone other than the client and project that they were created for. And let's imagine for just a moment that Proz\TM-to
... See more
Everybody here is saying that our TMs will be safe, locked down, confidential and "private, never to be made public". To that I say FOOEY !

That may be the promise "at this time" but once those TMs and glossaries are out of our own control, I don't care what anybody says, the risk is there that they can be manipulated into a different form and\or used to benefit someone other than the client and project that they were created for. And let's imagine for just a moment that Proz\TM-town is bought out in the future. It could easily happen. So much for the protection policies.

Are people here so naive that they actually believe that any translation entity with such a wealth of TMs glossaries etc won't find a way to use them ? Perhaps not now but policies change.

I have worked too hard over 17 years to build up the translation resources I have and I will not just put them on the ether to get a job. Won't happen.
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Meta Arkadia
Meta Arkadia
Local time: 06:49
English to Indonesian
+ ...
Kevin and MJWB... Apr 30, 2016

... did a excellent job "defending" TM-T. Now it's Henry's turn.

Cheers,

Hans

[Edited at 2016-04-30 11:48 GMT]


 
..... (X)
..... (X)
Local time: 08:49
You have a choice Apr 30, 2016

Ward Whittaker wrote:
Everybody here is saying that our TMs will be safe, locked down, confidential and "private, never to be made public". To that I say FOOEY !

That may be the promise "at this time" but once those TMs and glossaries are out of our own control, I don't care what anybody says, the risk is there that they can be manipulated into a different form and\or used to benefit someone other than the client and project that they were created for. And let's imagine for just a moment that Proz\TM-town is bought out in the future. It could easily happen. So much for the protection policies.

Are people here so naive that they actually believe that any translation entity with such a wealth of TMs glossaries etc won't find a way to use them ? Perhaps not now but policies change.

I have worked too hard over 17 years to build up the translation resources I have and I will not just put them on the ether to get a job. Won't happen.


1) TM-Town was just bought and privacy policies did not change at all.

2) You do not have to load any of your translation resources. A Deshi .town file is 100% useless to the hypothetical MT-training acquirer. It contains no segment or aligned data.


 
Maxi Schwarz
Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:49
German to English
+ ...
Responding to response May 1, 2016

Kevin Dias wrote:
First of all, I think you are overstating the concept of "ranking" on TM-Town.

There is no quality or degree to what I wrote. It is neither over- or understated. It is simply stated. Translators are ranked. That is a simple fact. I do not like the idea of putting one's name in a directory and that directory providing a "ranking" to customers - that simple. When a business is listed in the telephone book, the phone company does not presume to "rank" businesses. A customer does his own due diligence to learn more about each business before choosing one.

You could, for example, order the results alphabetically by a translator's name.

That would make sense and be fair. Or geographically. Or in the way that modern software permits, allow the list to reorder itself by geography, or alphabetically by name, or by specialization. None of these orders imply anything about the relative merits of one business over another - it is not "ranked".

Are you equally disturbed that the ProZ.com directory is "ranked" by KudoZ points?

I haven't actually looked much into the directory component. I joined ProZ and its twins as discussion forums where I can keep abreast of translation matters and converse with colleagues. If a customer wants to ascertain the quality of a translator by his or her terminology help given to colleagues, then the customer should read the actual entries to see the quality of those entries - quantity says little. Sometimes a person who is precise and knowledgeable will give advice infrequently, but very pertinently. If quantity is seen as ranking by a customer, that is unfortunate.

Why? Nakōdo analyzes the terms of a document that needs translation and recommends the translators who have translated similar material in the past.

It is hard enough for a trained experienced translator to analyze and assess a translation. Software can do no more than come up with statistics. Terminology is a single component of translation. As discussed before, the fact of translating material does not necessarily show expertise in that material.

For translators, Nakōdo makes it easier to find a particular kind of translation work, while decreasing the number of inquiries outside of one’s working fields.

Since it depends on uploaded translations, any translator who respects confidentiality to the letter or has other reasons not to upload his work (and his client's confidential source material) will not have queries going his direction, because the uploaded translations are not there. That work will tend to be siphoned off to those translators who do upload their work.

The approach also contributes to higher efficiency and quality of work, since working in your areas of specialization requires less time for you to research new concepts and terms.

The word "higher" is comparative. Higher than what? As a professional translator I do not work outside of any area where I do not have sufficient expertise - in fact, it's in the code of ethics my organization has us sign - so there is no change here. I suspect most of my respected colleagues work in a similar fashion.

So that begs the question - why even show translation units? Why have the default ordering of your traditional directory be based on translation unit counts?

The answer is, for Nakōdo to work well, it needs translators to upload work.

If I understand the answer correctly, you are saying that because your system needs translators to upload their work for that system (the one that ranks and siphons) the units serve as a kind of incentive or reward to have them do so. In the meantime I've had a look at your directory. The units are very prominent. If I were someone unfamiliar with translation I might get the impression that someone with more units is more knowledgeable, or experienced, or somehow better because of those numbers.

The more work you upload, the better TM-Town can work for you.

And since I won't do that because of the code of ethics I have signed, where I minimize the risk of sharing as much as I possibly can, it won't work well for me, if I follow this logic.
Just like ProZ.com has an incentive structure in place to participate in KudoZ.

Here is an honest statement. When ProZ first got started and I was invited to join, I read about those incentives and it is the main reason why I didn't join for quite a few years. I participate in spite of, not because of, such things. If I help a colleague it is out of goodwill, and out of interest in furthering the quality of our profession. To my surprise a few years ago some research and experiments actually showed that I was not alone, and that these rewards systems were not as effective as once thought.

In any case, the the TU count display is a possible disincentive. Ironically since I do belong to one of the professional organizations I probably would be in the higher ranks in your system.


 
acetran
acetran  Identity Verified
Member
English to Hindi
+ ...
Superb! May 1, 2016

Way to go, Proz!

 
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