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Do I deserve an apology?
Thread poster: Alex Wang
Álvaro Espantaleón Moreno
Álvaro Espantaleón Moreno  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 10:38
Member (2015)
English to Spanish
It sounds familiar Aug 28, 2017

Is this German guy located in Colombia?

 
MK2010
MK2010  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:38
French to English
+ ...
How about a duel at dawn? Aug 28, 2017

Honestly, I can't believe someone would spend this much time thinking about something so small. We all have bad experiences once in a while with a client or other professional contact. We get over it and we move on. It's called being an adult.

The fact that you are even asking whether or not it is okay to withhold payment until you have received an apology is absolutely appalling to me. Um... no, it is NOT okay !! This is all about your pride, nothing more.


 
Maija Cirule
Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 11:38
German to English
+ ...
Yeap Aug 28, 2017

Chris S wrote:

Maija Cirule wrote:

... and just spit on him?


Is this a cultural thing?


In complex with peeing and puking in the streets under influence, this is the most common feature of once Great Britain urban culture.


 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:38
French to English
Comments Aug 28, 2017

You say at (2) "I believe that there should be..." which means you are expressing your opinion, not a matter of fact. If you wish to have appropriate legal advce, then you need to consult a legal professional. You say you did finally receive the work you had ordered in the correct format, etc. This particular order seems to have gone mildly pear-shaped at one point. It happens.
To keep sane in business, you have to be able to put affect at a distance. If you are prepared to take legal adv
... See more
You say at (2) "I believe that there should be..." which means you are expressing your opinion, not a matter of fact. If you wish to have appropriate legal advce, then you need to consult a legal professional. You say you did finally receive the work you had ordered in the correct format, etc. This particular order seems to have gone mildly pear-shaped at one point. It happens.
To keep sane in business, you have to be able to put affect at a distance. If you are prepared to take legal advice for such a minor issue, then you will need to have more money than sense. It's not worth it.
You ordered a piece of work, you got your work, you need to pay for it.

You say you wasted 30 minutes of your time convincing the person to correct the work. It happens. You've certainly spent more than 30 minutes here, so you give the impression of having time to spare. Don't take this badly, but I think you are making a personal issue between you and the translator out of what is a basically a slightly awkward incident, an irritating incident, but certainly not worth spending any more time on. The chances are that the more you hassle this person for an apology, the less likely you are to get one. And the greater your chances are of having a negative Blue Board posting. Pay the translator and let the matter go.

With all due respect, I can understand the translator not wanting to communicate with someone who won't let the matter go.

[Edited at 2017-08-28 16:59 GMT]
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Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 09:38
Member (2007)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Apologies... Aug 28, 2017

c8894cd52bf1777d900061d4b88a1394--sweet-sayings-true-words

 
Claudio Porcellana (X)
Claudio Porcellana (X)  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 10:38
English to Italian
the process of creating a project in some modern CAT tools is very longwinded and effortsome? Aug 28, 2017

Hi there

I think rather that the "process of creating a project in an accounting software" is often longer than a short translation!


but creating a project from scratch in e.g. memoQ requires a couple of minutes, and even less if you let it follow a generic template ...

that said, I think that if a translator (or any kind of professional) doesn't comply with the PO and doesn't fix issue
... See more
Hi there

I think rather that the "process of creating a project in an accounting software" is often longer than a short translation!


but creating a project from scratch in e.g. memoQ requires a couple of minutes, and even less if you let it follow a generic template ...

that said, I think that if a translator (or any kind of professional) doesn't comply with the PO and doesn't fix issues after being noticed, he/she is wrong and must fix issues if asked

I'm not a lawyer and I don't know relevant laws, but I suspect this case can be a "breach of contract" for failure to comply with contractual obligations, so a no/delayed payment or even a claim can be issued, that is quite (un)oddly what is written on many POs and Agreements

here is the excerpt of one of my best customer agreement, but I signed other docs similar to this one:
The LS Work Order is an element of the contract for work, and defines the scope of work to be performed. Contractor agrees to execute all work in exact accordance with the instructions of LS ....... If the Contractor accepts an assignment but does not complete it according to specifications or LS standards of quality and performance, LS may request the Contractor to make changes or corrections. If the Contractor will be unable or unwilling to make reasonable corrections and changes promptly, LS may need to retain whatever portion is necessary from Contractor’s fees in order for the assignment to be satisfactorily completed

BTW, not surprisingly, some LPs ask to sign POs and return them ...
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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 10:38
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
I am curious: what happened with the translation? Aug 29, 2017

One for the OP: So what happened in the end? Did you pay and use the translation, or did you delay the delivery and ordered a new translation from another person? (I am afraid the German translation is right: you cannot use the translation unless it is paid for...)

 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 10:38
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Using before paying Aug 29, 2017

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT wrote:
I am afraid the German translator is right: you cannot use the translation unless it is paid for...


Of course you can! We all do similar things all the time in our daily lives. We buy things on credit and use them before they are fully paid. If you use a credit card, the vendor gets his money long after you've started using the product or even used it up. Ditto services -- you can "buy" now and pay later.

The client is not in breach of copyright or the agreement if he uses the translation before he's paid for it. He's only in breach later, if he didn't pay for the translation in the end. Agencies that pay after 30, 60 or 90 days don't wait 30, 60 or 90 days before they use or sell your translation -- they do so immediately, and pay you after the specified agreed-upon period.


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 10:38
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Only in a good-faith relationship Aug 29, 2017

Samuel Murray wrote:
Agencies that pay after 30, 60 or 90 days don't wait 30, 60 or 90 days before they use or sell your translation -- they do so immediately, and pay you after the specified agreed-upon period.

Of course, but one has to doubt that the case presented in this forum is a normal good-term/good-faith business relationship so far. If the translation is never paid, the translator will be entitled to damages for the use of the materials.


 
Riccardo Schiaffino
Riccardo Schiaffino  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:38
Member (2003)
English to Italian
+ ...
You passed from being in the right to being in the wrong the moment you demanded an apology Aug 29, 2017

Alex Wang wrote:
Eventually he obliged and delivered the corrected files after over a dozen email exchanges.

At this point, your translator had fulfilled his obligations to you and you must, therefore, pay him.

After this was over, I asked him to give me an apology because I told him that his behavior was simply unprofessional and unacceptable. He refused

Personally, If I had felt I had caused problems for you in delivering work that did not follow your instructions, I would have apologized willingly... unless I had received a message from you demanding an apology. At that point I would have refused: who are you to demand an apology? Expect an aplogy, willingly and voluntarily given, certainly, but demand it? That's out of bounds.

Today, I sent him another email asking for his apology and told him that I will not send his payment until I have his apology.

And at this point, you passed from being in the right into completely unacceptable behavior.

Here is his response: ... If you do not pay I forbid your client to use my translation and put the case with his text in the internet.

I'm with your translator on this: You have no right whatsoever to refuse payment for a job that has (eventually) been delivered as requested.


1. Do I deserve an apology from him for his unprofessional and unacceptable behavior after suffering through his abusive emails and the waste of more than half an hour of my time for something that he should have done in the first place?

You might have deserved an apology until you started demanding one. At that point you no longer deserved it.

2. Is it reasonable for me to hold his payment until I have that apology?

No.

3. Do I have the right to hold his payment until he apologizes?

No. And doing so is probably illegal.


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:38
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
A comment on attitudes, if I may Aug 29, 2017

The question you initially raised has been answered in full by others, but a few phrases you used in your second post are ringing alarm bells, and I suspect they could well lead to more problems in the future.

Alex Wang wrote:
why would a translator tell the outsourcer that he used to own several stores? I believe that he still feels that he is the boss.


the translator is the one who has the power to decide whether to take a project or not, but the translator has no right to control what the outsourcer wants


Even though the translator eventually complied, I had already spent more than 30 minutes trying to persuade him to deliver what he agreed to do in the first place, which is a financial loss on my part.


I don't know what was happening between the lines here, but just from the bare bones that we have to go on, I'm wondering whether the translator got the impression he was the one being bullied. No, he isn't the boss of the relationship; but neither are you! It's supposed to be a partnership relationship; a B2B relationship of business client and business supplier. There's no heirarchy involved.


 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:38
French to English
Two wrongs don't make a right Aug 30, 2017

You are not happy with the translator's behaviour. The translator has fulfilled his contractual obligations in providing the translation. Corrections were necessary, but you cannot complain about that being necessary as you must surely know that it is part of the agent's job to check that the work complies with the instructions that were provided. There was a bit of a hitch at some point, which the translator might not have dealt with in the most diplomatic way. You hoped for an apology which d... See more
You are not happy with the translator's behaviour. The translator has fulfilled his contractual obligations in providing the translation. Corrections were necessary, but you cannot complain about that being necessary as you must surely know that it is part of the agent's job to check that the work complies with the instructions that were provided. There was a bit of a hitch at some point, which the translator might not have dealt with in the most diplomatic way. You hoped for an apology which did not come. Most importantly though, the probem was resolved.

On the face of it, it does not look as though the translator did anything wrong. However, in not paying the translator, you are definitely in the wrong. Hassling for an apology is childish behaviour and not at all becoming in a professional context. Furthermore, using the absence of an apology as an excuse not to pay shows that you are acting in bad faith. You are the one prolonging the agony of this business relationship both of you probably want to end. Do it. Pay him and I bet you'll never hear from him again.

[Edited at 2017-08-30 08:44 GMT]
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David Jessop
David Jessop  Identity Verified
Laos
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
Abusiveness not OK but you should have a second system Oct 5, 2017

Michael Newton wrote:

Rudeness can come from agencies as well. I few weeks ago I was working on a project for an agency in Australia due on a Monday morning. Saturday night, my system crashed and I lost the document. I immediately contacted the agency in Australia, told him the bad news, apologized to him and said the earliest I could get a repair technician would be Monday morning. I received a number of e-mails demanding that I rent a computer or find another computer. This was easier said than done. The FedEx/Kinkos internet cafes in Boston have very limited hours on weekends. Buying new equipment was also out of the question. What can you do in the middle of the weekend??!! Since he placed the ad on proz.com, I suggested that contact one of the other translators who I assumed answered his ad. I also suggested that he place a new ad on proz.com. Japanese translators are used to working Asian hours/odd hours and I figured this would be a remedy. I received some abusive and insulting e-mails from accusing me of lack of professionalism and laziness. I told him he was being abusive and insulting and to stop contacting me. I received more e-mails from him which I deleted without opening.


Abusiveness or insulting behavior is never okay. On the other hand, I can understand he was very frustrated if the document needed to be turned in to an important client who had a reason for needing it by the deadline. As a professional translator you should have a second system and it was unprofessional of you to lose the document because of all the backup options available. I am sure you will not let this happen again after this experience.


 
mariealpilles
mariealpilles  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 10:38
Member (2014)
English to French
+ ...
retaining payment Oct 5, 2017

I agree that your translator sounds rude; yet we have only heard your side of the story. On top of that I tend to agree with those who ask why you insist on a specific CAT tool being used. What tool the translator uses to carry out the work depends on the translator and the translator only. I keep repeating the same argument - can you imagine going to a butcher and insisting he uses a specific knife to cut the piece of meat you want; I bet he would chase you out of his shop.

As for
... See more
I agree that your translator sounds rude; yet we have only heard your side of the story. On top of that I tend to agree with those who ask why you insist on a specific CAT tool being used. What tool the translator uses to carry out the work depends on the translator and the translator only. I keep repeating the same argument - can you imagine going to a butcher and insisting he uses a specific knife to cut the piece of meat you want; I bet he would chase you out of his shop.

As for payment being retained, you certainly have no right to retain it since the work was done.
As for formating, a translator is not an IT specialist and sometimes formating changes in the encryption process.
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Josephine Cassar
Josephine Cassar  Identity Verified
Malta
Local time: 10:38
Member (2012)
English to Maltese
+ ...
Payment? Oct 5, 2017

I wonder what happened with regards to payment? The translator's behaviour and response should never have been used to withhold payment whether the agency/client was right or not in demanding an apology.

 
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