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Translation job and quality
Thread poster: Piero Intonti
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:17
French to English
@Sheila - re your side note on accountants Oct 21, 2017

In the UK too, accountants may well be paid to take care of one's accounts, statements and returns, but the client submits official documents in his own name. If there are mistakes that can be put down to an acountant paid to do the job, it may count as a mitigating circumstance, and even lighten some of the fines, but not much else unfortunately.

 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:17
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Off-topic response Oct 21, 2017

Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:
In the UK too, accountants may well be paid to take care of one's accounts, statements and returns, but the client submits official documents in his own name. If there are mistakes that can be put down to an acountant paid to do the job, it may count as a mitigating circumstance, and even lighten some of the fines, but not much else unfortunately.

Thanks Nikki, I thought that might be the case everywhere. Sad how we worry so much about missing a zero off a number or mis-spelling a person's name, yet other - normally more regulated - professionals don't seem to have to worry about their mistakes at all. I'm advised by my new accountant to forget the few thousand already lost at the hands of that conman, but sue if the fine is actually imposed. You bet I will!

But that's off topic - sorry.


 
Vanda Nissen
Vanda Nissen  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 23:17
Member (2008)
English to Russian
+ ...
I agree Oct 21, 2017

Alex Ossa wrote:

- rejecting the translation offer
- outsourcing to a native speaker (if it's a client you normally work with into Italian and did not want to lose)
- pay a native speaker to edit your work

While it's great that you used a programme like Whitesmoke to check your work, remember that there is no substitute for a good human translation. If we were replaceable by software, we would be out of work!



I second Alex. There are only three options (well, the fourth one is when you let the agency know in advance that you are a non-native English speaker and your translation will need to be edited/reviewed by a native English translator.)
I do not know what Whitesmoke is but again, Alex is right, if we could rely upon software, we would have been out of work.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:17
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Neither did I Oct 22, 2017

Vanda Nissen wrote:

I do not know what Whitesmoke is


Neither did I, so I checked. They have a horrible website that keeps sending popups that can't be closed. And they're coy about how much it costs. First you have to give them your email address - and only then will you be able to select a "package" (which probably means a monthly subscription for something you may only use very rarely).

No thanks.

Re translating out of your mother tongue: many end users don't know (why should they?) that translation from one language to another isn't the same if you go vice-versa. It has to be explained to them.

[Edited at 2017-10-22 10:03 GMT]


 
Kevin Fulton
Kevin Fulton  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:17
German to English
Grammar-checking software not a guarantee Oct 22, 2017

Whitesmoke, PerfectIt as well as the grammar check in MS Word are useful for sometimes pointing out grammatical errors, or potential confusion of there/their/they're, but they don't check idiomatic correctness. For example, "Colorless green eyes were furiously sleeping" is grammatically correct, but utter nonsense. Using Whitesmoke, etc. will not improve a faulty translation.

 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Piero Oct 22, 2017

Piero Intonti wrote:
How can I objectively evaluate my work?
Is there a system to evaluate the quality of a translation work?


No, sorry, all systems to evaluate the quality of translation work are subjective, although some systems try to be scientific by formalising error categories and degrees of severity. I have little faith in such systems but I'm sometimes asked by clients to evaluate translations using them. In these systems, two or three independent translators evaluate the translation.

The best way to have your translation evaluated is by asking several translators (and that means paying money).

The agency says that the translation is of a low than acceptable quality and it has to be submitted to a reviewer. For this reason, they can pay me only 50% of the rate agreed.


My advice is this:

You should insist to see the edits the reviewer makes, so that you can respond to them to defend yourself. If you can convince the client that most of the edits made by the reviewer are preferential, you have a chance to retain the client for future jobs. If you can cast doubt on the reviewer's skill (based on his edits), then do so in a firm but diplomatic manner.

I did use Whitesmoke to have an idea about quality.


Programs like Whitesmoke help you to spot errors, but they do not catch all errors. If Whitesmoke fails to spot any errors, it doesn't mean that there are no errors.

I also outsourced the work to an English teacher who told me that the translation is well done.


I'm not going to evaluate your translation quality based on your grammar usage in this thread, Piero (because I'm not sure if you were able to edit your post), but I am going to do so with your CV. A translator's CV should be flawless, and yours contain several grammar and syntactical errors.

I don't know Italian, but your English CV gives me an insight into what Italian might sound like.

Look, there is nothing wrong with translating into your non-native language, even if your language skill isn't very good in that language, but what is important is that you do not make any errors. A non-native translation may not "flow" as nicely as that of a native speaker, but it could still be an adequate translation. Apart from the fact that there should not be any mistranslations in it, it should be error-free with regard to grammar and syntax.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
On WhiteSmoke's web site Oct 22, 2017

Tom in London wrote:
They have a horrible website that keeps sending popups that can't be closed. And they're coy about how much it costs.


There is only one pop-up that pops up when you reach the bottom of the page. And if you scroll back to the top, the pop-up doesn't follow you all the way to the top. You can close the pop-up by... wait for it... clicking the little "x".

It took me 5 seconds to find the link to their prices. It's a link at the top of the page called "Store" with an icon of a shopping trolley. It takes you here.

First you have to give them your email address - and only then will you be able to select a "package"...


I can't find a page that does that. How do you get to it?


[Edited at 2017-10-22 19:56 GMT]


 
Alex Ossa
Alex Ossa  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 10:17
Member (2017)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Native speaker-linguist Oct 24, 2017

Maxi Schwarz wrote:

I have never translated into my weaker languages. On a few occasions I have translated material that bordered on being past my expertise. In those cases I hired an EXPERT to proofread my work and revise it, and paid that person. That expert would be a professional translator, seasoned preferably, who also has expertise in the subject area. That is how you would handle it if you are going to translate in that direction. An English teacher, whether an Italian or Spanish or German who teaches English, or a native Englishman who grew up in an English speaking country, is not a translator. The bottom line is that you want to submit a translation that is of professional quality, up to the usual standards, and make sure that this is what you can deliver.


Yes, you're absolutely right: I said 'native speaker' in my post, when what I should have actually said (and meant, but who's a mind reader?) is a professional linguist, whether it's a translator or editor or related profession that requires a high-level use of language at a professional quality, and is native in that particular language. Your English mate at the pub is probably not going to catch basic issues with a piece even if it is in their native language. A professional translator or editor who is native in another language is possibly not going to quite cut it, either. As another person here mentioned: there are very few people who really can translate in both directions (much fewer than those who claim they can).


 
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:17
Spanish to English
+ ...
Chalk it up as a learning experience Oct 24, 2017

Alex Ossa wrote:

texjax DDS PhD wrote:




This is an incredibly important distinction: if you are not a native speaker, you MUST have your work checked by one. It is clear from the language you use in your post that, while you do have a good level of English, you do not have anywhere near a native-like level, so unless you are willing to pay a hefty editing fee to a native-speaker, I would recommend not accepting translations into English.

I'm sorry if this sounds a bit harsh; I promise, I'm not unsympathetic to your plight, but it could have been avoided by:
- rejecting the translation offer
- outsourcing to a native speaker (if it's a client you normally work with into Italian and did not want to lose)
- pay a native speaker to edit your work

While it's great that you used a programme like Whitesmoke to check your work, remember that there is no substitute for a good human translation. If we were replaceable by software, we would be out of work!

[etc.]


Or, as others have suggested here, make it crystal clear to the client that you do not have anywhere near a native command of the language (i.e., provide a caveat emptor).

As far as I can see, Piero has no ground to stand on here. The appropriate thing is to suck it up, chalk it up as a learning experience, move on, and make sure to never repeat the mistake.

Alex has summed up the matter nicely (and rather delicately) here.

As a side note, I think what a lot of native English speakers find irritating about claims of native proficiency is that the phenomenon seems far more common with regard to English than any other language. I for one don’t see a lot of non-natives claiming native fluency in Spanish, Russian, French, Dutch, etc. But English? Hey, no problem! “I can make good translation toward what is English.”


 
Riccardo Schiaffino
Riccardo Schiaffino  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:17
Member (2003)
English to Italian
+ ...
Warning about Whitesmoke Oct 24, 2017

Before installing Whitesmoke on your computer, read this: Whitesmoke: Writing tool or malware?

[Edited at 2017-10-24 16:29 GMT]


 
John Fossey
John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 09:17
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
Grammar checkers Oct 24, 2017

While I don't use Whitesmoke I sometimes use PerfectIt. But all of these programs are like a spellchecker - they are not always right, but at least they might draw your attention to something you might have otherwise missed. There's no excuse for missing an error that a spelling or grammar checker would point up. But in the end, it's your responsibility, not the machine's.

There's much more opportunity in learning to do a perfect job in your own mother tongue and your own field o
... See more
While I don't use Whitesmoke I sometimes use PerfectIt. But all of these programs are like a spellchecker - they are not always right, but at least they might draw your attention to something you might have otherwise missed. There's no excuse for missing an error that a spelling or grammar checker would point up. But in the end, it's your responsibility, not the machine's.

There's much more opportunity in learning to do a perfect job in your own mother tongue and your own field of specialty, than venturing into areas you are not good at.
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Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:17
Spanish to English
+ ...
Squaring the circle would seem easier Oct 24, 2017

Samuel Murray wrote:
Look, there is nothing wrong with translating into your non-native language, even if your language skill isn't very good in that language, but what is important is that you do not make any errors. A non-native translation may not "flow" as nicely as that of a native speaker, but it could still be an adequate translation. Apart from the fact that there should not be any mistranslations in it, it should be error-free with regard to grammar and syntax.


So let’s unpack this:
Someone with poor skill in a target language can somehow still manage (unaided, presumably) to produce an “adequate” translation into said language that is free of errors and that, at worst, could be faulted for not “flowing” particularly smoothly.

This sees like a most curious assertion.

[Edited at 2017-10-24 17:29 GMT]


 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:17
French to English
Responsibility at least shared Oct 24, 2017

Piero's client here is a translation agency. If an agency is happy to ask a freelancer to translate into a non-native language, the agency cannot then complain about the non-native quality of the translation it receives in return. The agency should pay up the full price of what was agreed as they got exactly what they had ordered.

 
Guofei_LIN
Guofei_LIN  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 23:17
Chinese
Translating into your weaker language Oct 26, 2017

In my overcrowded language pair (Chinese-English), most of the translators come from Chinese speaking background and translators from English speaking background are in short supply, besides, on many occasions native speakers of English cannot understand the nuance of the Chinese text and fail to convey the intended meaning into English. So as a non-native speaker, from time to time I'm called upon to translate from my native Chinese into my English. As long as the client understands the pros an... See more
In my overcrowded language pair (Chinese-English), most of the translators come from Chinese speaking background and translators from English speaking background are in short supply, besides, on many occasions native speakers of English cannot understand the nuance of the Chinese text and fail to convey the intended meaning into English. So as a non-native speaker, from time to time I'm called upon to translate from my native Chinese into my English. As long as the client understands the pros and cons, I do not see producing translations into my weaker language in itself is an issue.

In your case, I think the translation agency is at fault here. If they decide to use a non-native speaker, they should honour the original agreement and make payment as originally agreed. If they are unhappy with the translation, they can look elsewhere next time. But agreement is agreement.

[Edited at 2017-10-26 17:58 GMT]
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