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Rates for subtitling work
Thread poster: Marie Rollet
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:54
English to German
+ ...
Don't get fooled Mar 20, 2016

jbjb wrote:

English to French is a very specific field in subtitling.
Subtitlers in France have the best copyright protection and good trade union support - this has managed to keep the rates there higher than anywhere else in the world.

Compared to 2006, subtitling rates have fallen 2-3 times for most languages. In France, quite possibly, there has been movement in the upward direction. Big subtitling companies are trying to push rates to EUR 3-5 per minute for the most expensive languages (French, German, Scandinavian, Dutch) and for the most part have managed with the exception of French.

As an EN-FR translator based in the UK, your most likely niche would be undermining the competition - getting work for lower rates than in trade union supported France and without the tedious copyright protection.

Forget about transcription - this is handled by machines or in India/Philippines (English) and any French-speaking forner colony (French). You will not be able to compete with those rates.


Serious clients and serious language experts will always agree on adequate pricing. That goes for creating subtitles in any language as well. You need to know how much work is involved to be able to charge adequately. For that, you need to have all the info (video, transcripts if available, format and software requirements, etc.). Imagine you have 200 words per minute. And that's just the text. That's without even thinking of watching the video again and again, translating within the given time frames, special language, use of special software. Quoting/accepting flat rates per video minute because someone suggests that isn't a professional approach at all. On the contrary, it's for people willing to be exploited. It doesn't matter if that's what certain agencies want you to do. Don't do it.

[Edited at 2016-03-20 04:58 GMT]


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 15:54
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
Too many variables to oversimplify into 'rates' Mar 20, 2016

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Serious clients and serious language experts will always agree on adequate pricing. That goes for creating subtitles in any language as well. You need to know how much work is involved to be able to charge adequately. For that, you need to have all the info (video, transcripts if available, format and software requirements, etc.). Imagine you have 200 words per minute. And that's just the text. That's without even thinking of watching the video again and again, translating within the given time frames, special language, use of special software. Quoting/accepting flat rates per video minute because someone suggests that isn't a professional approach at all. On the contrary, it's for people willing to be exploited. It doesn't matter if that's what certain agencies want you to do. Don't do it.


Bernhard,

With all due respect, subtitling work has just too many critical, cost-influencing variables at play to be oversimplified like this. Your approach above attempts to draw a parallel from the translation of a complex PRINTED publication, which could be broken down into independent stages.

Under the risk of merely scratching the surface, I'll try to point a few variables.

First, a snapshot of a few features in that printed pub translation job that don't have equivalent in subtitling:
  • If the text (script) is not provided, OCR can automate human transcription much better than any voice recognition contrivance.
  • Translation of the pub will be complete, unabridged; while subtitling calls for utmost conciseness.
  • While it is possible to proofread and fix DTP as much as a subtitles file, while DTP is WYSIWYG, subtitling isn't always so.

    To illustrate, the funniest type of request I get from video-unsavvy clients goes like this:
    "We need you to transcribe a video."
    "Okay, I can do it. Any particular file format you prefer, or will a *.doc work for you?"
    "We want you to transcribe it on the video itself."
    "I beg your pardon, but I don't get the idea."
    "You see, the video is spoken in English. We want you to transcribe (sic!) it in Portuguese."
    "Ah, you mean you want it translated!"
    "Yes, if you say so."
    "All right, I can do that. Do you want the full script translated, the video translated for dubbing, or do you want it translated for subtitles?"
    "I want it transcribed in Portuguese."
    "I think I've lost you again."
    "I want it transcribed in a way that, as people onscreen say their lines in English, the corresponding transcription in Portuguese comes up written at the bottom of the screen while they are saying them."
    "That's called subtitling."
    "I've read somewhere that subtitling is much more expensive that transcription, so we'd like to save as much as possible."
    "Yes, indeed. However transcription will give you pages of plain text, no longer a video. Subtitling is that text coming up onscreen in chunks, in sync with the video."
    "If you say so... that's what we want!"


    Nevertheless, transcription may have its role in the subtitling workflow.

    Even if it's subtitling into ONE language, when the content involves "complex wording" (e.g. chemical compounds, hard-to-spell names, etc.), transcription by a source language expert is worth the expense.

    When a video is to be translated and subtitled in several different languages, it is more economical (though odten detrimental to the overall quality, to some extent) to have the original script transcribed, chopped into subtitles, and pre-timed ONCE, so that several translators working into different target languages may work mostly on TEXT (using the audio track for guidance).

    First, these translators are much easier to find in all language pairs to be covered. Top-flight video translators who can work script-less, directly from the audio file are not so many, comparatively. Second, any translator will work much faster, if relieved from the transcribing task within the direct-from-audio translation work. Third, the work becomes less tiresome, so the same translator can offer not only lower rates, but also faster turnaround.

    Taking my personal case as an example (since I wouldn't know any other), the difference in cost between subtitling directly from audio and working on pre-timed templates is striking. Of course, in the latter case, my client will have invested in transcribing, spotting and timing the templates. However to translate on templates, as compared to direct from audio, I'll charge one-third of my rate per minute of playing time, and will endure producing 3x-4x in the same period of time.

    Leaving production volume aside, generalizing my figures, and assuming that transcribing, spotting and timing a template should cost 2/3 of the straight-from-audio translation, cost calculations are simplified:
    - cost of translating straight from audio = $9 (assumption)
    - cost of transcribing into timed templates = $6 (2/3)
    - cost of translating templates = $3 (1/3)

    So for ONE target language it's the same, $6 + $3 = $9.
    However doing it straight from audio for, say, 5 languages, would cost $9 x 5 = $45.
    On the other hand, using templates to translate into 5 languages would cost $6 + (5 x $3) = $21, saving ~50% overall.

    A DVD can hold up to 32 different subtitle files (= languages). So the maximum savings there could be:
    32x video translations from audio = $288
    One template + 32 translations = $6 + (32 x $ $3) = $102, ~65% savings.

    Of course, these figures aren't accurate, but they show the way for the client to calculate the break even point of transcribing & spotting first.

     
  • Bernhard Sulzer
    Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
    United States
    Local time: 14:54
    English to German
    + ...
    With all due respect ... Mar 20, 2016

    José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

    Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

    Serious clients and serious language experts will always agree on adequate pricing. That goes for creating subtitles in any language as well. You need to know how much work is involved to be able to charge adequately. For that, you need to have all the info (video, transcripts if available, format and software requirements, etc.). Imagine you have 200 words per minute. And that's just the text. That's without even thinking of watching the video again and again, translating within the given time frames, special language, use of special software. Quoting/accepting flat rates per video minute because someone suggests that isn't a professional approach at all. On the contrary, it's for people willing to be exploited. It doesn't matter if that's what certain agencies want you to do. Don't do it.


    Bernhard,

    With all due respect, subtitling work has just too many critical, cost-influencing variables at play to be oversimplified like this. Your approach above attempts to draw a parallel from the translation of a complex PRINTED publication, which could be broken down into independent stages.



    I did no such thing. I mentioned a few possible variables of subtitling. Each project can be different and involve more or sometimes fewer variables. Sometimes it is the time-coded text in a particular language that's needed and the actual technical side (putting the subtitles on the screen) is handled by the client or another contractor. I worked with a film director for example where that was the case.

    I merely draw attention to the fact that no one should believe it's an easy task and that they should not simply charge some arbitrary rates per video minute as suggested by many. I also point out that we're not talking about merely translating and it should be obvious to the reader that pricing for subtitling is a more complex matter than for straightforward translation.

    The only parallel to general text translation I draw is that no matter what you're working on in this business, you need to know all the facts and have all the information, special hardware and/or software (if required) to quote/charge adequately.

    So let me quote again from my previous post:

    Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
    ... Quoting/accepting flat rates per video minute because someone suggests that isn't a professional approach at all. On the contrary, it's for people willing to be exploited. It doesn't matter if that's what certain agencies want you to do. Don't do it.
    [Edited at 2016-03-20 14:03 GMT]

    [Edited at 2016-03-20 14:19 GMT]


     
    José Henrique Lamensdorf
    José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
    Brazil
    Local time: 15:54
    English to Portuguese
    + ...
    In memoriam
    100% in agreement Mar 20, 2016

    Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

    I did no such thing. I mentioned a few possible variables of subtitling. Each project can be different and involve more or sometimes fewer variables. Sometimes it is the time-coded text that's needed and the actual technical side (putting the subtitles on the screen) is handled by the client or another contractor. I worked with a film director for example where that was the case.

    I merely draw attention to the fact that no one should believe it's an easy task and that they should not simply charge some arbitrary rates per video minute as suggested by many. I also point out that we're not talking about merely translating and it should be obvious to the reader that pricing for subtitling is a more complex matter than for straightforward translation.


    Definitely. The obvious conclusion is that there is NO adequate or sensible answer to this thread's question, period!

    Too many translators dream about the chance of being magnanimously paid to translate and subtitle that film they enjoyed so much when they saw it last night, oblivious to the fact that it requires training, skill, and competence.

    All they can say in their favor is "Heck, I am a translator!", while I'm not sure that Superman would do a good translation and subtitling job.

    On the other end, I get requests every day... today it's Sunday, so I only have two of them... to the tune of "Hey, I bought a bunch of DVDs online. As they're in English, how much would you charge me to have them subtitled in Portuguese?" One of today's cases would cost about USD 5K.

    Of course, they ignore that producers and/or distributors pulverize this hefty cost among so many thousand copies/specators that nobody notices it.


     
    jbjb
    jbjb  Identity Verified
    Estonia
    Local time: 20:54
    Estonian to English
    + ...
    per minute Mar 21, 2016

    Unfortunately per minute is the standard in subtitling. This is how clients order and estimate their translation costs - e.g. Netflix decides to release the series "Full House" worldwide in their platform. That's 192 episodes, 25 minutes each - 4800 minutes. They translate into, say, 20 languages at the moment. So they can calculate - 4800x20= 96,000 minutes. This is just one series out of hundreds that they release every year, so nobody really cares about the content - if it's a sitcom where 30... See more
    Unfortunately per minute is the standard in subtitling. This is how clients order and estimate their translation costs - e.g. Netflix decides to release the series "Full House" worldwide in their platform. That's 192 episodes, 25 minutes each - 4800 minutes. They translate into, say, 20 languages at the moment. So they can calculate - 4800x20= 96,000 minutes. This is just one series out of hundreds that they release every year, so nobody really cares about the content - if it's a sitcom where 30% of screen time is spent laughing or a political series like "West Wing" with non-stop complicated text. We are not talking about content or the nature of translation - we are talking about the number of minutes for a certain market. Launch in Turkey with 50 TV series and 150 feature films? We need 3.5 million minutes translated in few months.
    Or let's say Disney is looking to translate its films for worldwide release. One film is an average of 100 minutes, they have a release schedule of 80 films a year into 65 languages. That's 100x80x65 = 520,000 minutes a year. Nobody even knows what the content will be - most of these films have not even been made yet but they want a subtitling company in place for the next 3 years to handle all of these minutes.

    The next stage is subtitling companies scrambling for these minutes. Two months to translate 96,000 minutes into 20 languages. How many languages can I handle? I take one language - quote Netflix EUR 5 per minute, pay translators EUR 3, the result is 192,000 euro for project management over two months. Another company can handle 10 languages - they quote EUR 4, pay EUR 3, keep 96,000x10= 960,000 in project management.
    An Indian company thinks that's big money - project management workforce is cheap, we can offer EUR 3.3 per minute for all 20 languages, pay EUR 3.
    That's 0.3x20x96,000= 576,000 in project management for two months to translate one series out of hundreds released by Netflix every year. Big money for India, we can hire 20 project managers for that - let's see how those European subtitling companies can compete with that. And if we manage to pay one language EUR 2, instead of EUR 3, we make an additional profit of 96,000 per language.

    For Netflix - the cost of releasing "Full House" worldwide through a company bidding EUR 5 per minute: 9.6 million euro. Through the Indian company bidding EUR 3.3 per minute - 6.3 million euro.

    Anyway, these are the volumes and margins we are talking about in subtitling. Huge clients, huge volume of work, very varied content. Nobody has time to think about mundane things like if they talk 200 words or 130 words per minute. Binding contracts are made with subtitling companies on translating content that
    1) has not even been made yet (Disney and other studios)
    2) has not even been bought yet (TV channels that need to buy 200 feature films a year to fill air time)
    3) has not even been decided yet (Netflix knows they will launch in Turkey and launch cost estimates include 3.5 million minutes of translation - that's 17.5 million euro or 11.5 million euro, depending on the subtitling company they get.)

    Margins go very low and translators have a choice - accept the EUR 3 per minute or refuse and let somebody else accept that price. You cannot say - sorry, translating West Wing takes me 50% per more time than Full House. I think I want EUR 3+50%= EUR 4.50 per minute. Guess what? Nobody cares when the company they work for gets EUR 3.3 per minute from the client.
    Will the Indian company go to Netflix and say - sorry, but West Wing is a very complicated series, I think we want more money to translate that series into French?
    Netflix will just say: What the F? We are translating 6 million minutes into that language in 2016 and the budget was approved a year ago. We really don't give a sh*t if 20,000 minutes out of those 6 million is complicated content, there are 17 other subtitling companies scraping at our door to get those minutes from us.
    And what if the translation is bad? Nobody will die from watching West Wing with a bad translation, unlike with a wrong translation in the user manual of a weed whacker that may lead to legal disputes and court cases.
    Collapse


     
    Bernhard Sulzer
    Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
    United States
    Local time: 14:54
    English to German
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    Not so mundane Mar 21, 2016

    jbjb wrote:
    ...

    Anyway, these are the volumes and margins we are talking about in subtitling. Huge clients, huge volume of work, very varied content. Nobody has time to think about mundane things like if they talk 200 words or 130 words per minute.


    It's not a mundane thing to me.


    jbjb wrote:
    Margins go very low and translators have a choice - accept the EUR 3 per minute or refuse and let somebody else accept that price.


    Find better clients. There's no reason to work at such conditions, be it for agencies or end clients.

    [Edited at 2016-03-21 15:06 GMT]


     
    MK2010
    MK2010  Identity Verified
    United States
    Local time: 14:54
    French to English
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    Great post, jbjb Mar 21, 2016

    You do a really good job at showing what a global marketplace we work in. I can understand those translators who insist that we are like doctors and other professionals who set our own rates, but the fact is, that analogy doesn't work at the global level. Things like medical costs DO actually change considerably depending on the location—which is why, for instance, there are many Americans who go to Canada to buy medicine (much cheaper) and Americans who fly to Thailand or Mexico or elsewhere ... See more
    You do a really good job at showing what a global marketplace we work in. I can understand those translators who insist that we are like doctors and other professionals who set our own rates, but the fact is, that analogy doesn't work at the global level. Things like medical costs DO actually change considerably depending on the location—which is why, for instance, there are many Americans who go to Canada to buy medicine (much cheaper) and Americans who fly to Thailand or Mexico or elsewhere to get surgical procedures that cost one 10th what they cost here. A doctor or a plumber or a lawyer is usually setting his prices for the local market. He is not competing with a colleague around the world whose cost of living is a fraction of his. But we are. Our marketplace IS the entire world and we ARE in fact competing with colleagues who can afford to work for less. Of course, the translator is ultimately the one who decides which rates she is willing to accept, but I think it can only help to understand some of the points jbjb made below.


    jbjb wrote:

    Unfortunately per minute is the standard in subtitling. This is how clients order and estimate their translation costs - e.g. Netflix decides to release the series "Full House" worldwide in their platform. That's 192 episodes, 25 minutes each - 4800 minutes. They translate into, say, 20 languages at the moment. So they can calculate - 4800x20= 96,000 minutes. This is just one series out of hundreds that they release every year, so nobody really cares about the content - if it's a sitcom where 30% of screen time is spent laughing or a political series like "West Wing" with non-stop complicated text. We are not talking about content or the nature of translation - we are talking about the number of minutes for a certain market. Launch in Turkey with 50 TV series and 150 feature films? We need 3.5 million minutes translated in few months.
    Or let's say Disney is looking to translate its films for worldwide release. One film is an average of 100 minutes, they have a release schedule of 80 films a year into 65 languages. That's 100x80x65 = 520,000 minutes a year. Nobody even knows what the content will be - most of these films have not even been made yet but they want a subtitling company in place for the next 3 years to handle all of these minutes.

    The next stage is subtitling companies scrambling for these minutes. Two months to translate 96,000 minutes into 20 languages. How many languages can I handle? I take one language - quote Netflix EUR 5 per minute, pay translators EUR 3, the result is 192,000 euro for project management over two months. Another company can handle 10 languages - they quote EUR 4, pay EUR 3, keep 96,000x10= 960,000 in project management.
    An Indian company thinks that's big money - project management workforce is cheap, we can offer EUR 3.3 per minute for all 20 languages, pay EUR 3.
    That's 0.3x20x96,000= 576,000 in project management for two months to translate one series out of hundreds released by Netflix every year. Big money for India, we can hire 20 project managers for that - let's see how those European subtitling companies can compete with that. And if we manage to pay one language EUR 2, instead of EUR 3, we make an additional profit of 96,000 per language.

    For Netflix - the cost of releasing "Full House" worldwide through a company bidding EUR 5 per minute: 9.6 million euro. Through the Indian company bidding EUR 3.3 per minute - 6.3 million euro.

    Anyway, these are the volumes and margins we are talking about in subtitling. Huge clients, huge volume of work, very varied content. Nobody has time to think about mundane things like if they talk 200 words or 130 words per minute. Binding contracts are made with subtitling companies on translating content that
    1) has not even been made yet (Disney and other studios)
    2) has not even been bought yet (TV channels that need to buy 200 feature films a year to fill air time)
    3) has not even been decided yet (Netflix knows they will launch in Turkey and launch cost estimates include 3.5 million minutes of translation - that's 17.5 million euro or 11.5 million euro, depending on the subtitling company they get.)

    Margins go very low and translators have a choice - accept the EUR 3 per minute or refuse and let somebody else accept that price. You cannot say - sorry, translating West Wing takes me 50% per more time than Full House. I think I want EUR 3+50%= EUR 4.50 per minute. Guess what? Nobody cares when the company they work for gets EUR 3.3 per minute from the client.
    Will the Indian company go to Netflix and say - sorry, but West Wing is a very complicated series, I think we want more money to translate that series into French?
    Netflix will just say: What the F? We are translating 6 million minutes into that language in 2016 and the budget was approved a year ago. We really don't give a sh*t if 20,000 minutes out of those 6 million is complicated content, there are 17 other subtitling companies scraping at our door to get those minutes from us.
    And what if the translation is bad? Nobody will die from watching West Wing with a bad translation, unlike with a wrong translation in the user manual of a weed whacker that may lead to legal disputes and court cases.


    [Edited at 2016-03-21 16:26 GMT]

    [Edited at 2016-03-21 16:30 GMT]
    Collapse


     
    Georgie Scott
    Georgie Scott  Identity Verified
    France
    Local time: 19:54
    French to English
    + ...
    Oh rly? Mar 21, 2016

    jbjb wrote:

    Unfortunately per minute is the standard in subtitling. This is how clients order and estimate their translation costs - e.g. Netflix decides to release the series "Full House" worldwide in their platform. That's 192 episodes, 25 minutes each - 4800 minutes. They translate into, say, 20 languages at the moment. So they can calculate - 4800x20= 96,000 minutes. This is just one series out of hundreds that they release every year, so nobody really cares about the content - if it's a sitcom where 30% of screen time is spent laughing or a political series like "West Wing" with non-stop complicated text. We are not talking about content or the nature of translation - we are talking about the number of minutes for a certain market. Launch in Turkey with 50 TV series and 150 feature films? We need 3.5 million minutes translated in few months.
    Or let's say Disney is looking to translate its films for worldwide release. One film is an average of 100 minutes, they have a release schedule of 80 films a year into 65 languages. That's 100x80x65 = 520,000 minutes a year. Nobody even knows what the content will be - most of these films have not even been made yet but they want a subtitling company in place for the next 3 years to handle all of these minutes.

    The next stage is subtitling companies scrambling for these minutes. Two months to translate 96,000 minutes into 20 languages. How many languages can I handle? I take one language - quote Netflix EUR 5 per minute, pay translators EUR 3, the result is 192,000 euro for project management over two months. Another company can handle 10 languages - they quote EUR 4, pay EUR 3, keep 96,000x10= 960,000 in project management.
    An Indian company thinks that's big money - project management workforce is cheap, we can offer EUR 3.3 per minute for all 20 languages, pay EUR 3.
    That's 0.3x20x96,000= 576,000 in project management for two months to translate one series out of hundreds released by Netflix every year. Big money for India, we can hire 20 project managers for that - let's see how those European subtitling companies can compete with that. And if we manage to pay one language EUR 2, instead of EUR 3, we make an additional profit of 96,000 per language.

    For Netflix - the cost of releasing "Full House" worldwide through a company bidding EUR 5 per minute: 9.6 million euro. Through the Indian company bidding EUR 3.3 per minute - 6.3 million euro.

    Anyway, these are the volumes and margins we are talking about in subtitling. Huge clients, huge volume of work, very varied content. Nobody has time to think about mundane things like if they talk 200 words or 130 words per minute. Binding contracts are made with subtitling companies on translating content that
    1) has not even been made yet (Disney and other studios)
    2) has not even been bought yet (TV channels that need to buy 200 feature films a year to fill air time)
    3) has not even been decided yet (Netflix knows they will launch in Turkey and launch cost estimates include 3.5 million minutes of translation - that's 17.5 million euro or 11.5 million euro, depending on the subtitling company they get.)

    Margins go very low and translators have a choice - accept the EUR 3 per minute or refuse and let somebody else accept that price. You cannot say - sorry, translating West Wing takes me 50% per more time than Full House. I think I want EUR 3+50%= EUR 4.50 per minute. Guess what? Nobody cares when the company they work for gets EUR 3.3 per minute from the client.
    Will the Indian company go to Netflix and say - sorry, but West Wing is a very complicated series, I think we want more money to translate that series into French?
    Netflix will just say: What the F? We are translating 6 million minutes into that language in 2016 and the budget was approved a year ago. We really don't give a sh*t if 20,000 minutes out of those 6 million is complicated content, there are 17 other subtitling companies scraping at our door to get those minutes from us.
    And what if the translation is bad? Nobody will die from watching West Wing with a bad translation, unlike with a wrong translation in the user manual of a weed whacker that may lead to legal disputes and court cases.


    Scorsese disagrees.

    Netflix gets laughed out of town for its translations. It's such a terrible example to cite. I dont know, jbjb, but never before have I had such serious suspicions that someone was trolling on this site.

    You seem intent on advocating low rates. As you say, translators have a choice, accept the 3 euros per minute or take their job seriously and go elsewhere. Of course companies care about how effective their final product is. And there are 17 other subtitling companies scraping at their door (what does that even mean?) that do care about quality.

    Rubbish translations are easy to get ahold of. If you want to do everything possible to make sure your film doesn't tank, you'll pay for a decent translation (why do you think vinyl and film are so popular in the digital age?).

    Yeah, sure. It's easy to get low rates. It's also not that hard to get decent rates, you just have to avoid buying into this nonsense. Again, I repeat, of course it's easy to get low rates. It's also easy to get food poisoning and a car that breaks down every 100 miles. But you can also invest in the long term and opt for quality over making a quick buck.

    This is not news.

    But in the long term, maybe it's a good thing, as the rubbish subtitles churned out by companies like Netflix at least bring to the press and the public's attention the pertinence of choosing your translators carefully.

    The OP has invested money in her career, there's no reason for her to compete with people who've come to the industry through fansubbing. She's unlikely to earn back the money she's invested that way.


     
    Georgie Scott
    Georgie Scott  Identity Verified
    France
    Local time: 19:54
    French to English
    + ...
    Agree to disagree Mar 21, 2016

    MK2010 wrote:

    You do a really good job at showing what a global marketplace we work in. I can understand those translators who insist that we are like doctors and other professionals who set our own rates, but the fact is, that analogy doesn't work at the global level. Things like medical costs DO actually change considerably depending on the location—which is why, for instance, there are many Americans who go to Canada to buy medicine (much cheaper) and Americans who fly to Thailand or Mexico or elsewhere to get surgical procedures that cost one 10th what they cost here. A doctor or a plumber or a lawyer is usually setting his prices for the local market. He is not competing with a colleague around the world whose cost of living is a fraction of his. But we are. Our marketplace IS the entire world and we ARE in fact competing with colleagues who can afford to work for less. Of course, the translator is ultimately the one who decides which rates she is willing to accept, but I think it can only help to understand some of the points jbjb made below.


    [Edited at 2016-03-21 16:26 GMT]

    [Edited at 2016-03-21 16:30 GMT] [/quote]

    Of course it is important to have a basic understanding of economics and the global marketplace as a translator.

    But there's a reason so many of these large translations companies fail. Compare the industry with copywriters and scriptwriters rather than doctors and lawyers. I have 6 bookshelves lined with books on economics and a lot of senior contacts in multinational companies and I draw quite the opposite conclusion from jbjb.

    The more rubbish translations out there, the more valuable good translations become. Either you invest in your career or you don't.


     
    Bernhard Sulzer
    Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
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    Best practices Mar 21, 2016

    MK2010 wrote:

    ... Our marketplace IS the entire world and we ARE in fact competing with colleagues who can afford to work for less. Of course, the translator is ultimately the one who decides which rates she is willing to accept, but I think it can only help to understand some of the points jbjb made below.


    You should never compete with amateurs that work for inadequate rates. I'm not a dishwasher in the US. If I wanted to work at a dishwasher's wage, then I should wash dishes, not provide excellent language services. There are many players in the global market, and when you're good, you don't work for bottom feeders or at bottom rates, no matter where you are. Global competition means you have the world as your market, and in this market, you sell what you have (skill, knowledge, experience, education (self- or otherwise) talent, ...) at a reasonable price, competing with other reasonable colleagues. But you don't just compete on price.

    Otherwise you're not a language expert, you are nothing but a cheap laborer who is being exploited. There are clients who value what I do at the prices I charge. So, I am not making this a career by trying to beat everybody else's rates or by simply accepting rates suggested by unscrupulous agencies. Just because someone says I have to compete on price with someone living in India doesn't make it true. Respect yourself and what you can offer and charge adequately. That's part of what best practices means.


     
    jbjb
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    + ...
    netflix Mar 21, 2016

    Apologies to Netflix - I only used the company as a hypothetical example because they are a truly global client now present in all of the countries of the world. They do actually care about quality and are setting up their own subtitling teams - cutting out the middle man and working with subtitling companies only for certain languages and certain huge projects. So I believe they are an example of a company that cares about quality and quality control: their own subtitling teams should handle mu... See more
    Apologies to Netflix - I only used the company as a hypothetical example because they are a truly global client now present in all of the countries of the world. They do actually care about quality and are setting up their own subtitling teams - cutting out the middle man and working with subtitling companies only for certain languages and certain huge projects. So I believe they are an example of a company that cares about quality and quality control: their own subtitling teams should handle much of the translations for original content.

    But their first international steps led to problems like this
    https://torrentfreak.com/netflix-caught-using-pirated-subtitles-in-finland-121019/
    Probably an example how a bottom feeder company found a way to make an easy proft and perhaps a major reason why Netflix decided to launch its own translation teams.

    But the hypothetical Netflix is a good example on the dilemma of the clients: do we pay 11 million euro a year or 17 million euro for better qualilty? Is quality worth 6 million euro to us or can we pay 11 million and still get good qualilty?

    The Scandinavian market is a good example. After years of underbidding, the market was left with 3-4 major subtitling providers who agreed to stop the dumping and pay a certain unified rate to all translators. Unfortunately the rate is too low for professional translators who have mostly stopped subtitling work (or learned to work fast, very fast), leaving the work mostly to students or translators who do it for fun.

    A few links about the harsh reality of the industry there.
    http://www.av-kaantajat.fi/in_english/outsourcing-gone-awry-a-campaign/
    http://televisionsreviewss.blogspot.com/2015/12/worse-subtitling-on-television-has.html

    Yes, the quality has gone down. Yes, it is being criticised in newspaper articles, blogs, Twitter.
    No results this far - but we are all waiting if perhaps Scandinavia will be the first market to buck the trend and see someone say: OK, I will pay those 6 million euros more and get better quality translations.

    All of us are waiting for this to happen. But in the meantime, the trend is this:
    Email 25/11/14 from Zoo
    "In order to retain our contracts with clients, a rate decrease will affect ZOO and all our translators from the beginning of June onwards. This is of course a source of regret for us, but in order to remain competitive the greatest rate of pay we will be able to offer in the future is US$3.00 per video minute. "
    http://translationethics.blogspot.com.ee/p/blacklist-z.html

    And if someone posts here and says they have been asked a quote from "a major subtitling company" or says they want to start in subtitling, it's really no use talking here about "arbitrary rates per video minute".
    This is a fairy tale that applies for fewer and fewer niche/boutique translation houses. This will not help them to get work or realistically plan their expectations in the industry.
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    MK2010
    MK2010  Identity Verified
    United States
    Local time: 14:54
    French to English
    + ...
    I don't recall saying anything... Mar 22, 2016

    ...about "rubbish" translations. Of course they're out there, but just because a translator lives in a country where she can make a decent living charging less than a translator in the U.S. or Europe does not mean her work is rubbish. Manufacturers from the richest countries in the world move their plants to developing countries where it's cheaper to make anything from a car to a computer to a tennis shoe to a phone. Hollywood shoots films in Canada or in Eastern Europe or wherever the tax incen... See more
    ...about "rubbish" translations. Of course they're out there, but just because a translator lives in a country where she can make a decent living charging less than a translator in the U.S. or Europe does not mean her work is rubbish. Manufacturers from the richest countries in the world move their plants to developing countries where it's cheaper to make anything from a car to a computer to a tennis shoe to a phone. Hollywood shoots films in Canada or in Eastern Europe or wherever the tax incentives are these days because they can save a lot of money. I knew a major art gallery in Chicago where the curator traveled to China for every exhibit to print out the catalogue and the invitations, because even with the cost of the trip, it was cheaper than going with a local. And everything that gallery does is absolutely top-notch, they are a legend in the art world. Screenwriters accept lower fees when they're starting out (before joining the WGA for example) to get a foot in the door. They write treatments for free in the hopes of nailing that big studio gig. Major A list actors will accept to do small indie films at a fraction of their multi-million dollar salaries because they believe in the project. A novelist might choose to go with a smaller house instead of Random-Penguin because even though the advance might be smaller for that first novel she's been writing for 10 years, she feels that with the smaller publisher, she'll get more editorial and marketing support. And so on. It's not all about money.

    Every translator must weigh the pros and cons of the various projects and clients that come her way. I work for several end clients in one very specific industry. One of them pays a lot more than the other one. But I still work with the other one because I love what they do, I love the job, and I want a long term relationship with one of the pioneers in that industry. That same client is now branching out into a different industry (film production), and so now I get to be involved in that, which has always been a dream.

    To say there is one way for everybody is ridiculous. Even without going into globalization and outsourcing (and why should translation be one of the only industries to escape that?), certain translation sectors pay better than others, period (and with respect to this thread, subtitling is not typically one of them). And certain clients offer regular work at slightly lower rates while others pay better but the jobs are sporadic, etc. It's all a balancing act, and it's up to each professional linguist to figure out what works for them. If it takes one translator three hours to translate 1K words and another one can do the same volume in half the time, well, right there, that's a factor. Ultimately, it's about how much we make an hour. If I can work on material I really enjoy, which might pay less than other sectors, but which I can do quickly enough that I'm pulling in 200 bucks a day, well that's fine with me. If I can make those 200 bucks on any given day and still have time to hit the ski slopes, then that's EVEN better.

    @ Bernhard: I have no idea what your dishwasher has to do with any of this



    Georgie Scott wrote:

    Of course it is important to have a basic understanding of economics and the global marketplace as a translator.

    But there's a reason so many of these large translations companies fail. Compare the industry with copywriters and scriptwriters rather than doctors and lawyers. I have 6 bookshelves lined with books on economics and a lot of senior contacts in multinational companies and I draw quite the opposite conclusion from jbjb.

    The more rubbish translations out there, the more valuable good translations become. Either you invest in your career or you don't.


    [Edited at 2016-03-22 01:17 GMT]

    [Edited at 2016-03-22 03:38 GMT]

    [Edited at 2016-03-22 03:39 GMT]

    [Edited at 2016-03-22 03:40 GMT]
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    Charuta Kulkarni
    Charuta Kulkarni
    India
    Local time: 00:24
    English to Marathi
    + ...
    good explanation May 5, 2017

    this was really good explanation of how the translation / subtitling market works.
    thanks!


    jbjb wrote:

    Unfortunately per minute is the standard in subtitling. This is how clients order and estimate their translation costs - e.g. Netflix decides to release the series "Full House" worldwide in their platform. That's 192 episodes, 25 minutes each - 4800 minutes. They translate into, say, 20 languages at the moment. So they can calculate - 4800x20= 96,000 minutes. This is just one series out of hundreds that they release every year, so nobody really cares about the content - if it's a sitcom where 30% of screen time is spent laughing or a political series like "West Wing" with non-stop complicated text. We are not talking about content or the nature of translation - we are talking about the number of minutes for a certain market. Launch in Turkey with 50 TV series and 150 feature films? We need 3.5 million minutes translated in few months.
    Or let's say Disney is looking to translate its films for worldwide release. One film is an average of 100 minutes, they have a release schedule of 80 films a year into 65 languages. That's 100x80x65 = 520,000 minutes a year. Nobody even knows what the content will be - most of these films have not even been made yet but they want a subtitling company in place for the next 3 years to handle all of these minutes.

    The next stage is subtitling companies scrambling for these minutes. Two months to translate 96,000 minutes into 20 languages. How many languages can I handle? I take one language - quote Netflix EUR 5 per minute, pay translators EUR 3, the result is 192,000 euro for project management over two months. Another company can handle 10 languages - they quote EUR 4, pay EUR 3, keep 96,000x10= 960,000 in project management.
    An Indian company thinks that's big money - project management workforce is cheap, we can offer EUR 3.3 per minute for all 20 languages, pay EUR 3.
    That's 0.3x20x96,000= 576,000 in project management for two months to translate one series out of hundreds released by Netflix every year. Big money for India, we can hire 20 project managers for that - let's see how those European subtitling companies can compete with that. And if we manage to pay one language EUR 2, instead of EUR 3, we make an additional profit of 96,000 per language.

    For Netflix - the cost of releasing "Full House" worldwide through a company bidding EUR 5 per minute: 9.6 million euro. Through the Indian company bidding EUR 3.3 per minute - 6.3 million euro.

    Anyway, these are the volumes and margins we are talking about in subtitling. Huge clients, huge volume of work, very varied content. Nobody has time to think about mundane things like if they talk 200 words or 130 words per minute. Binding contracts are made with subtitling companies on translating content that
    1) has not even been made yet (Disney and other studios)
    2) has not even been bought yet (TV channels that need to buy 200 feature films a year to fill air time)
    3) has not even been decided yet (Netflix knows they will launch in Turkey and launch cost estimates include 3.5 million minutes of translation - that's 17.5 million euro or 11.5 million euro, depending on the subtitling company they get.)

    Margins go very low and translators have a choice - accept the EUR 3 per minute or refuse and let somebody else accept that price. You cannot say - sorry, translating West Wing takes me 50% per more time than Full House. I think I want EUR 3+50%= EUR 4.50 per minute. Guess what? Nobody cares when the company they work for gets EUR 3.3 per minute from the client.
    Will the Indian company go to Netflix and say - sorry, but West Wing is a very complicated series, I think we want more money to translate that series into French?
    Netflix will just say: What the F? We are translating 6 million minutes into that language in 2016 and the budget was approved a year ago. We really don't give a sh*t if 20,000 minutes out of those 6 million is complicated content, there are 17 other subtitling companies scraping at our door to get those minutes from us.
    And what if the translation is bad? Nobody will die from watching West Wing with a bad translation, unlike with a wrong translation in the user manual of a weed whacker that may lead to legal disputes and court cases.


     
    gdawgkorea
    gdawgkorea
    South Korea
    rates for teachers doing short clips? Nov 18, 2017

    Hi,

    I hope I'm not in the wrong area, but I am but poor and humble linguistics professor, who is very far from project management.

    I just want 5-10 minute clips subtitled just in English to use in my classes.

    The discussion here is indeed informative so thanks for the education -- I should know since my uni here in South Korea has a bit interpretation and translation department.

    Undergrad students here charge about $10 per hour, in which time t
    ... See more
    Hi,

    I hope I'm not in the wrong area, but I am but poor and humble linguistics professor, who is very far from project management.

    I just want 5-10 minute clips subtitled just in English to use in my classes.

    The discussion here is indeed informative so thanks for the education -- I should know since my uni here in South Korea has a bit interpretation and translation department.

    Undergrad students here charge about $10 per hour, in which time they can do 1 minute. So even a 15 minute clip is $150. Sure that's chump change when you're talking about multilingual subtitles and whole seasons of shows and requires project manager.

    I'm just a poor professor who wants to see if there's a cheaper rate. This is a small fish question in a sea of big fish, so apologies if my solution is just to go to CraigsList in India.

    Thanks
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