https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english/poetry-literature/6661027-book-title-%22the-unknown-babylon-%22-or-%22unknown-babylon-%22.html
This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
sentence understand
gauntlet
May 10, 2019 21:54
5 yrs ago
English term

Book title \"The Unknown Babylon\" or \"Unknown Babylon\"

FVA Not for points English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature Narrative
We translated a book about ancient Babylon. And we'd like to know which would be the right title. If a THE is required or not in the title.
Should the title be "The Unknown Babylon" or "Unknown Babylon".
Responses
4 +2 Unknown Babylon

Discussion

Charles Davis May 15, 2019:
This is actually similar to what Susan was saying: "it suggests that the book will contain something specific that is amazing and hitherto unknown". If that is indeed what the author intends to suggest.
Charles Davis May 14, 2019:
There could be a UK/US difference. On the other hand, as a British speaker, I now find myself thinking there could be a case for the article, depending on the content. In the examples Björn and I have cited, "Unknown England", "Unknown France" and so on suggest that the book will introduce us to a number of things about England or France — places, sights, maybe cultural or historical curiosities — that most people don't know, to supplement those they do know. It will be, if you like, an anthology of unknown things that doesn't necessarily claim to add up to a whole different image of England or France. That would be the implication of "Unknown Babylon": the book will expand our knowledge of Babylon. On the other hand, "The Unknown Babylon" might work if the implication is that our current idea of Babylon is not the real truth, or only part of the truth, and that there is a whole other unknown side to Babylon, which the book is going to tell us about. In a sense, "The Unknown Babylon" is a more ambitious title, as if the book is going to change our idea of Babylon as a whole.
Björn Vrooman May 14, 2019:
It seems... ...there is a UK/US difference here.

UK again, with "Unknown Egypt" on the last page: http://www.ancientegyptmagazine.co.uk/Ancient-Egypt-Magazine...

Maybe a compromise would be: If it was translated into UK English, drop the article; if it was translated into American English keep it?

I wish you could change the title. Because from what I've heard/read about the book, I think the following would be a great way to sum up its contents (and then you don't need to worry about that pesky article business):

The Untold Story of Babylon

Similar to:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Making-India-Untold-British-Enterpr...

Best wishes
Susan Welsh May 14, 2019:
either one is OK I somewhat prefer the version with the article, because it suggests that the book will contain something specific that is amazing and hitherto unknown.
Björn Vrooman May 13, 2019:
@David Could you help me out here? I'd like to agree with Charles, but I can't even post an agreement because of that ProZ.com requirement. I'm sure you've been thinking along the same lines?

Best wishes

Björn
José Patrício May 13, 2019:
By the Unknown Waters of Babylon [
Babylonunknown. Used to indicate a strong and powerful, yet corrupted and immoral place - https://www.google.de/search?q=Babylon, the unknown -dict.cc...
Björn Vrooman May 13, 2019:
PS I asked a native English speaker about the title and he agrees with dropping the definite article.

He also provided me with some other examples of unknown + country. So, if you really need to stick to that title, Leandro, that's the way to go, IMO.

Maybe that helps. Obviously, I can't post an answer because of the ProZ membership requirement.

Best
Björn Vrooman May 12, 2019:
Hello Leandro Why didn't you ask this Q in the DE-EN forum? I'm a GNS and I had a feeling this was a translation from German.

Of course, I haven't read the book, but my objection is based on the fact that unbekannt is used to describe parts of the region/history that (some) people may have yet to see, hear about or explore.

If you need to stick to the title, drop the article, as in "Unknown England":
https://www.amazon.com/England-Ian-Niall/dp/0713418435

I think that'd be short for "parts of England unknown to most readers." It's more about landscape "blind spots."

Though, take this one, for example:
"Das unbekannte Ruhrgebiet (Eine Bildreise)"
https://www.amazon.de/Das-unbekannte-Ruhrgebiet-Eine-Bildrei...

I really wouldn't say "The unknown/Unknown Ruhr region"; that sounds odd to me. And the history of Babylon is relatively well documented, I thought--it's more like you have uncovered evidence or posit theories that could help paint a more detailed picture of the past.

Not saying I couldn't be wrong about this. A few other suggestions:
"Babylon: A History of..."
"...Life in Babylon"

However, many of these have already been used.

Best
Leandro David Dolenc (asker) May 12, 2019:
Thank you Björn, David Hollywood and José Patricio Thank you guys for the cooperation. But the author would like to stick to the original German title that's "Das unnbekante Babylon".
Björn Vrooman May 12, 2019:
Why... ...don't you use "The Secrets of...":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo4Z2viYYSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aobBpYdvgIc

Babylon isn't exactly unknown...or you could use something like "Babylon: A Journey into the Unknown." Cf https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703385404576259...

Best
David Hollywood May 11, 2019:
the ball in is your court on this
JohnMcDove May 11, 2019:
What about, Babylon, The Unknown Empire or "Babylon, Answers to the Unknown" --
David Hollywood May 11, 2019:
very hard to suggest anything without having read the content but both your suggested options have their merits...
David Hollywood May 11, 2019:
deciding on a suitable book title is never easy and involves at least a couple of actors... you (the author), the editor/publisher (looks at it from a "what's the best way to sell this" perspective) and maybe others so the best way to go is to discuss the matter and come up with a manageable solution... I know because I was involved in this process with a book that was eventually published with a title I wasn't particularly happy with but ok ...
José Patrício May 10, 2019:
The Big Unknown (South Babylon Remix) - The Big Unknown (South Babylon Remix) - https://soundcloud.com/southbabylon/sade-the-big-unknown-sou...

Responses

+2
2 days 10 hrs
English term (edited): book title \\\"the unknown babylon\\\" or \\\"unknown babylon\\\"
Selected

Unknown Babylon

I am the native speaker Björn consulted :-) He's suggested I post an answer, so I will.

I agree with the comments several people have made to the effect that the best title for this book may well be neither of these options but something different. Some nice suggestions have been made, and many others are possible. Obviously one would need to know the content of the book in some detail before making a decision. However, if you are obliged to use a literal translation of the original title, and the decision comes down to whether or not to use the definite article in English, then I would say not: Unknown Babylon would be a more idiomatic choice than The Unknown Babylon. Unknown Babylon suggests unfamiliar aspects of Babylon; The Unknown Babylon would tend to suggest that there's another unknown place called Babylon in addition to the Babylon we know.

This is borne out by the fact that several books with similar titles exist and none includes the article. Björn has cited Unknown England, by Ian Niall:
https://www.amazon.com/England-Ian-Niall/dp/0713418435

Another published example is Unknown France, by Georges Pillement, translated from his La France inconnue:
https://www.amazon.com/roads-Spain-France-Georges-Pillement/...
https://www.abebooks.fr/rechercher-livre/titre/la-france-inc...

And there are two more by Barbara Crocker Whelpton, entitled Unknown Ireland: a motoring itinerary of lesser-known general and archaeological features:
https://books.google.es/books/about/Unknown_Ireland.html?id=...
and Unknown Austria:
https://books.google.es/books?id=i6a0AAAAIAAJ&source=gbs_sim...

So I think Unknown Babylon would be acceptable, if your hands are tied, even though there may be better options.
Note from asker:
Thank you so much Björn for your detailed explanation. Thanks Steffen and all those people who contrituted to clarifying the question.
Thank you so much Charles. In fact, I'm tied up with the title. Unknown Babylon with or without "THE". I really appreciate your time. Thanks everyone.
Peer comment(s):
agree Steffen Walter : all the way with your (and Björn's) reasoning
1 day 9 hrs
Thank you very much, Steffen :-)
agree Ramey Rieger (X)
11 days
Thanks very much, Ramey :-)
Something went wrong...
Comment: "First validated answer (validated by peer agreement)"