Dec 22, 2011 20:37
12 yrs ago
3 viewers *
Italian term
i saperi della forma
Italian to English
Art/Literary
Architecture
Book on design in architecture
This is the surrounding text:
"Come sempre è possibile però una lettura che mostri anche l’altra faccia della medaglia. La forte separazione che si è ingenerata fra i saperi della costruzione (strutture e tecnologia) ed *i saperi della forma* non sarebbe da attribuire al totale disinteresse dei *saperi della forma* stessa nei confronti degli altri saperi quanto ad un processo di settorializzazione e di suddivisione delle competenze, al fine di meglio controllare gli sviluppi gestionali ed i momenti decisionali."
"saperi della construzione" is easy "construction expertise" or "construction technology". "Knowledge of form" or "form expertise" just doesn't seem to mean anything. I don't want to use "artistic expertise" because, he's already talked about that and it is classified differently. I can't make that connection, which he doesn't make. Something like "spatial composition" isn't quite the same thing.
I have a fairly precise notion of what the author means. He has just spoken about the architect "Gehry". Clearly it is the knowledge, expertise or skill that Gehry used to produce this:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=85...
"Come sempre è possibile però una lettura che mostri anche l’altra faccia della medaglia. La forte separazione che si è ingenerata fra i saperi della costruzione (strutture e tecnologia) ed *i saperi della forma* non sarebbe da attribuire al totale disinteresse dei *saperi della forma* stessa nei confronti degli altri saperi quanto ad un processo di settorializzazione e di suddivisione delle competenze, al fine di meglio controllare gli sviluppi gestionali ed i momenti decisionali."
"saperi della construzione" is easy "construction expertise" or "construction technology". "Knowledge of form" or "form expertise" just doesn't seem to mean anything. I don't want to use "artistic expertise" because, he's already talked about that and it is classified differently. I can't make that connection, which he doesn't make. Something like "spatial composition" isn't quite the same thing.
I have a fairly precise notion of what the author means. He has just spoken about the architect "Gehry". Clearly it is the knowledge, expertise or skill that Gehry used to produce this:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=85...
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
13 hrs
Selected
design know-how
I think "design know-how" versus "construction know-how" seems to work pretty well here. It highlights the difference between practical talent and aesthetic talent.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "On balance this obvious simplification is probably the best compromise."
23 mins
knowledge of form principles
just an idea.
Note from asker:
| Thankyou DrSeuss |
11 mins
shaping expertise
How about this?
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Note added at 37 min (2011-12-22 21:14:58 GMT)
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In mancanza di una migliore soluzione, aggiungo anche quelle discusse qui sopra con James:
"creative expertise" oppure "imaginative expertise".
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Note added at 37 min (2011-12-22 21:14:58 GMT)
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In mancanza di una migliore soluzione, aggiungo anche quelle discusse qui sopra con James:
"creative expertise" oppure "imaginative expertise".
Note from asker:
| I did consider "shape" here and often use it to translate form, but it just doesn't work here. Designers aren't "shapers", even if that is what they do. So far I have "artistic expertise (form)" in brackets, even if I don't really want to use the word "artistic". |
| Thank you Glinda |
28 mins
jasonwkingsley
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
Good understandable English with style.
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, Italian to English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
understanding of shapes/forms
I would play around with different definitions all pertaining to his understanding of architecture. Use different words for 'saperi' - knowledge, understanding, awarness,
maybe 'shape consciousness' for this phrase...expertise implies perfection and upon a quick look at wiki, it seems a bit different, he might be an expert at what he does though...check it out..
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Note added at 51 mins (2011-12-22 21:28:51 GMT)
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saperi della costruizone = praxis of construction (what is actually practiced in construction, the
saperi della forma = (theoretical) understanding of shapes/forms...principles like Dr Seuss said could work here too.
It is the difference between praxis and theory.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2011-12-22 23:41:47 GMT)
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Last thought for tonight : It seems like you're trying to work out a common word for 'saperi'..maybe 'sense' ..sense of consruction, sense of shapes...
maybe 'shape consciousness' for this phrase...expertise implies perfection and upon a quick look at wiki, it seems a bit different, he might be an expert at what he does though...check it out..
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Note added at 51 mins (2011-12-22 21:28:51 GMT)
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saperi della costruizone = praxis of construction (what is actually practiced in construction, the
saperi della forma = (theoretical) understanding of shapes/forms...principles like Dr Seuss said could work here too.
It is the difference between praxis and theory.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2011-12-22 23:41:47 GMT)
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Last thought for tonight : It seems like you're trying to work out a common word for 'saperi'..maybe 'sense' ..sense of consruction, sense of shapes...
Note from asker:
| That is fine, but if you look at the context, the author is also using saperi as a metonym for all the architect designers and what they do and for all the builders and what they do and you can't do that with knowledge, understanding or awareness in English. You can with expertise and I've tried playing with that. |
| My expertise is in translation, but I'm not quite perfect at it yet, give me another life time or two. He is saying the building expertise and pure architectural design expertise have little in common. The two disciplines have become separated. |
| Thank you |
3 hrs
tradu-grace
Italy
Italy
Native in Italian
Italy
15y in translation
Native in: Italian 
, French
Works in: English to Italian, French to Italian, Italian to English
Related KudoZ points
:
12
modelling knowledge
..
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Note added at 3 ore (2011-12-22 23:51:49 GMT)
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link: http://www.isprs.org/proceedings/XXXIV/5-W10/papers/hadjri.p...
HIH even though the moderator already gave a hint.
Note from asker:
| Thank You Grace |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Russell Jones
: "The" Moderator claims no linguistic authority!
9 hrs
|
|
I got it Russell. Merri XMas
|
12 hrs
Michael Korovkin
Italy
Italy
Native in English
Works in field
Italy
Native in: English , Russian
Works in: Russian to English, English to Russian, Italian to Russian, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
28
the disciplines related to form ("of the form/al")
as opposed to the disciplines of building/construction.
I'm fairly convinced that the use of both terms is intended in a loftier and more general manner than mere expertise. Rather, one could consider even a more poetic, and still loftier, "sciences", which, after all, are but "saperi".
That's how I personally would be tempted to translate it – maybe in inverted commas: the sciences of building/construction and the sciences of (the) form(al).
Substantially, there's an even more outrageous example of the "split" than Gehry: Colatrava. He doesn't even bother, or is able to, produce architectural drawings: just makes aquarelles and tells the engineers, "build it!". His is a pure discipline of the form... to the total chagrin of the builder. Generally, architects are progressively becoming all builders' nightmare.
I'm fairly convinced that the use of both terms is intended in a loftier and more general manner than mere expertise. Rather, one could consider even a more poetic, and still loftier, "sciences", which, after all, are but "saperi".
That's how I personally would be tempted to translate it – maybe in inverted commas: the sciences of building/construction and the sciences of (the) form(al).
Substantially, there's an even more outrageous example of the "split" than Gehry: Colatrava. He doesn't even bother, or is able to, produce architectural drawings: just makes aquarelles and tells the engineers, "build it!". His is a pure discipline of the form... to the total chagrin of the builder. Generally, architects are progressively becoming all builders' nightmare.
Note from asker:
| Thank you Michael |
Discussion
un architetto molto inventivo --> a highly imaginative architect
And also this:
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q="imaginative...
So "imaginative expertise" could be a better option.