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Spanish to English translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature
Spanish term or phrase:Capigorrón
Esos de gran ropaje los nobles, aquellos zánganos de capa y cintas, los Capigorrones, ese grupo con traje, los Camaristas y esos otros que están perdidos los Pupilos.
Francisco de Quevedo -No puedo, soy un Capigorrón y el orden de asientos es: noble, colegial, camarista, pupilo y capigorrón.
-Capigorrón, es decir pobre...
Por cierto, soy Quevedo, Francisco de Quevedo y muchos de estos capigorrones llegaremos a ser grandes eruditos de la historia.
Thank you to everyone for your help. I decided to leave it in Spanish with an explanation. I selected this answer, although it is not quite correct, it may be in another context. 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
I tend to agree with your assessment; the term 'capigorrón' seems to be based on an archetypal figure of the period, and classical Spanish Golden Age drama and literature is crammed full of such archetypes,like the 'pícaro' himself, whose original meaning may have become watered down over the centuries as such figures receeded evermore into the increasingly distant past. And yes, all in all, a fascinating and fruitful discussion.
there could have been much more of an overlap than we would expect today anyway as the church was much more part of things. It's one of the reasons I favoured leaving it in Spanish in this instance, even more so since knowing it's for a tourist guide as it won't be the only term left in Spanish. @Andrew Bramhall there used to be one such professor participating in KudoZ who would have been able to resolve this in a jiffy, but he doesn't seem to be involved these days, more the pity. Had thought of trying to contact him. @all Interested we are still continuing the conversation despite the deadline having expired. I love having some olde worlde stuff to chew on. Hope it makes the glossaries. The era was my passion years ago, but sadly my Uni notes and most books were devoured by a flood in my mum's basement some time ago!
es una lista muy propia del entorno académico de la época y no incluye a ningún religioso @Kathleen, ¿puedes poner una imagen o extracto de la guía o algún lugar donde verla? a ver si salimos de dudas o lo tenemos al menos algo más claro pero estas referencias aluden a estudiantey su vcriado interior de su estrato ya que se trata de un lacayo (Ocafia), de un paje (Quifiones) y de un criado capigorrôn Cristina es una fregona o Quinones un paje o sefialar a los sefiores con el "don" o al estudiante y a su capigorrôn Por ejemplo en la siguiente acotaciôn: Entran CARDENIO, con manteo y sotana, y tras él TORRENTE, capigorrôn El manteo y la sotana eran prendas habituâtes de los estudiantes;9 en el caso del vestido del capigorrôn
no nos confunda esa sotana, que no sería de clérigo
I checked the 1936 DRAE, and the example cited to illustrate the use of capigorrón as a minor eclesiastic is by, guess who? Quevedo! 2. Dícese del que tiene órdenes .menores r se mantiene así sin pasar a las mayores. U. t. c. s. '1 «A todo capigorrón, o lo que fuere. canónigo o arcediano.» Quevedo, Obr., ed. Rív.• t. 23, p. 327.
el término se registra tanto para estos ayudantes como para ciertos clérigos, pero el texto se encuadra en ambiente estudiantil además, la alusión a capigorrón en una obra de verdad de Quevedo no sé si sirve de mucho aquí porque se trataría de una recreación o ambientación no de una reconstrucción fidedigna o rigurosa. pero habría que saber cómo es la guía
....now retired Emeritus professor living in Catalonia, a Golden Age specialist and published author on Quevedo, had this to say when I sent him the question link:
"Near the beginning of La Perinola, Quevedo uses the word capigorrón to criticise Juan Pérez de Montalbán for mixing everything up, comparing him to the diverse travellers in the coach from Alcalá to Madrid, which include "el capigorrón con el fraile." Here, at least, he seems to be referring to the ecclesiastical meaning, more than the university one.But I couldn't find the word in Casa de los locos de amor, which I'm pretty sure I've now read in its entirety for the first time. Which means I'm not being helpful, I'm afraid. As for the offerings made to proz.com, I guess the age of the piece that's being translated has a lot to do with the word you might choose, as well as the context."
en época de Quevedo, con el léxico y el habla propios de entonces. para una guía turística, tiene mucho aire literario o al menos un vocabulario muy elaborado,
Thank you all very much for your help. I decided to leave it in Spanish with an explanation. Vagabond is close but doesn't quite fit because in English, vagabonds were homeless people, not university students. Domini, it's a tourist guide. Deadline this morning.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-...Quevedo the novelist is perhaps best known through his picaresque novel La vida del buscón (1626; Paul the Sharperor The Scavenger), in which he followed the usual episodic pattern of the picaresque novel, intermixing sardonic wit. In this novel he sought to entertain, to ridicule, and to hold up fraud and dishonesty to scorn, but he rarely moralized directly, as did other picaresque novelists of his time. ... Translations of Quevedo into English are difficult to find. A translation of El buscón, entitled The Scavenger, was done by Hugh H. Harter in 1962. This volume contains an introduction expressly for the American reader.
@Kathleen Misson Is this is a play? And how urgent is it? I've found a 1928 translation of some Golden Age picaresque short stories in my bookcase and may find something extra, but will need a few days...
the Appleton dictionary I quoted has idler, sponger for zángano. I just wonder if the sentence could be re-worked to either retain the Spanish terms or explain them. Of the top of my head, sth like "those idlers/low-lifes/scroungers wearing/sporting ribboned capes/gowns, the Capigorrones..." Or "those wanderers in their ribboned capes..." Appletons definition of gorrón is also sponger, parasite, libertine. Quevedo wrote a picaresque novel called La vida del buscón which according to the britannica reference has been translated as "The Life of a Scoundrel". I also can't help thinking of the la Tuna song Las cintas de mi capahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rcr4tSp_lc the tuna orginally being students who wandered about singing to eat. The vagabond and student are linked here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuna. More context would help with improving the off-the-cuff thoughts.
I would avoid "fag" as it is v British public school specific and can be linked with bullying, especially these days. Also has had other offensive connotations. As well as being specific to boarding school, the offence it could cause sounds stronger than the original to me. My Quevedo era knowledge is rusty, but I don´t read this as having a purely pejorative tone as he refers it to himself. I also wonder if it is more picaresque , i.e. the negatives can also carry a tongue-in-cheek/satirical tone. https://www.britannica.com/art/picaresque-novel The picaresque might roll the wandering/vagabond, scrounger and student elements all into one. See also https://www.britannica.com/biography/Francisco-Gomez-de-Quev...The bulk of his satirical writings were aimed at specific abuses of the day and are no longer of interest, but he is remembered for his picaresque novel La vida del buscón (1626; “The Life of a Scoundrel”), which describes the adventures of “Paul the Sharper” in a grotesquely distorted world of thieves, connivers, and impostors.
I'm American, not British, so I'm not too familiar with that usage, but it sounds better and more natural than student-servant. Also good to keep in mind the context, which I think is 17th-century for this text (though I could be wrong). Is there a reasonable British/English equivalent from that time period?
As in Tom Brown's Schooldays. However, I don't think 'fag' really works in the query context either. This is a tough cookie, as it's from hundreds of years ago.
While I more or less agree with Phil's answer, it almost seems like a too-literal translation. But I should also say, given the context, that the word is capitalized twice, as though mentioned for its literal definition.
My other hesitation is that student-servant doesn't quite satisfy me. Phil, do you have any other references for the use of student-servant that we could use/have a look at?
Andrew Bramhall United Kingdom Local time: 12:24 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 70
Grading comment
Thank you to everyone for your help. I decided to leave it in Spanish with an explanation. I selected this answer, although it is not quite correct, it may be in another context.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you all very much for your help. I decided to leave it in Spanish with an explanation. Vagabond is close but doesn't quite fit because in English, vagabonds were homeless people, not university students.
peer agreement (net): +2