donations entre vifs avec ou sans charge

English translation: conditional or unconditional inter vivos gifts

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:donations entre vifs avec ou sans charge
English translation:conditional or unconditional inter vivos gifts
Entered by: AllegroTrans

15:04 Mar 31, 2023
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general) / Power of Attorney to deal with another person's assets
French term or phrase: donations entre vifs avec ou sans charge
This is a line in the POA:

b/ Accepter toutes donations entre vifs avec ou sans charge qui pourraient être consenties au constituant.

I am wavering between "without charge" and "without conditions/burdens". I think it's the latter but would welcome comments.
Please don't simply guess, this must be boilerplate and have one single meaning in France.
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:54
conditional and unconditional inter vivos gifts
Explanation:
I reached my answer independently...as my slow working-out demonstrates!
With a very reliable English-language reference.

But, at 2 hours...

Bourth posted,

"'Obligation' might work, but not 'condition",

followed, much further on, by

"For Switzerland, I tend to see this as 'conditional gift', even if the condition is a 'charge'",

plus an Agree from Phil that I didn't see (I was trying to multitask).

Also Emmanuella seems to have posted and then removed a cryptic Discussion entry...

All that being said, award the points as you wish, AllegroTrans.
I enjoyed exercising my brain a bit, that's enough for me.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2023-04-01 13:28:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Also see my Discussion entries, obviously.
Selected response from:

Conor McAuley
France
Local time: 20:54
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +1(inter vivos) gifts/contracts with or without charges
Bourth
4conditional or unconditional lifetime gifts / gifts inter vivos /
Adrian MM.
4conditional and unconditional inter vivos gifts
Conor McAuley


Discussion entries: 6





  

Answers


50 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
(inter vivos) gifts/contracts with or without charges


Explanation:
Definition of charge here : https://www.ebene-avocats.fr/le-rapport-a-la-succession-d-un...

"Par contre, l'intention libérale n'a pas à porter sur la totalité de la valeur du droit faisant l'objet de la donation, puisque le Code civil du Québec prévoit spécifiquement que cette dernière peut être rémunératoire ou avec charge; dans un tel cas, la donation portera sur la valeur qui excède cette rémunération ou cette charge[23]. La donation d'un immeuble à charge d'assumer l'hypothèque le grevant ou celle comportant un droit d'usage en faveur du donateur constituent des exemples de donations avec charge[24]. Une donation faite pour récompenser le donataire de services rendus au donateur sera une donation rémunératoire pour la valeur excédant celle des services rendus[25]."

"On the other hand, donative intent need not involve the full value of the right constituting the object of the giftsince the Civil Code of Quebec specifically provides that a gift may be remunerative or with a charge; in this case, the gift will involve the value in excess of this remuneration or charge.[23] The gift of an immovable conditional upon assuming the hypothec charged to it or with a right of use belonging to the donor would represent examples of gifts with a charge.[24] A gift made to reward the donee for services rendered to the donor would constitute a remunerative gift for the value in excess of the services rendered.[25]"
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/harmonization/si...

Despite the above, the concept of 'gifts with charges' appears not to exist in Canadian law:
"A gift is the voluntary and gratuitous transfer of property from the person making the gift (the donor) to the person receiving the gift (the donee). In order for the transfer of a thing or an interest in land to be regarded legally as a gift, the donor must not receive any direct or indirect benefit in return for the transfer. (If a benefit of some kind is received, the transfer is likely to be considered a contract rather than a gift.)"
https://www.mclartywolf.com/about-us/ [Vancouver law firm]

Nor under English law:
"In general inter vivos gifts require donative intent, delivery and acceptance. If any of these are not present then the gift fails. The donor (the person making the gift) should not receive anything tangible in return for a gift"
https://www.sleeblackwell.co.uk/legal-articles/gift-land

The https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/harmonization/si... site above (which might be worth reading more fully than I have) refers to contracts:

"A contract is onerous when each party obtains an advantage in return for his obligation.
When one party obligates himself to the other for the benefit of the latter without obtaining any advantage in return, the contract is gratuitous.
A concurrent reading of these two articles reveals that a gift consists in the transfer from one person to another of property or a patrimonial right that has pecuniary value where the donor receives no benefit in return:
This article should be read in conjunction with article 1381 C.C.Q., which makes a distinction between an onerous contract and a gratuitous one"

So unless you go down the Quebenglish road, you might be best served by 'contract' rather than 'gift', if things are to be remotely clear. Or go down the translator's-note road.


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Note added at 2 hrs (2023-03-31 17:13:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A different angle for Switzerland.

"donation avec charge - gift with a condition attached; gift subject to a condition or obligation" https://baixardoc.com/documents/french-english-legal-diction...

(From what I can make out on the Ouèbbhe, I rather have the impression you'll find the same in this 'Bridge' that people talk about).

'Obligation' might work, but not 'condition' since a conditional gift refers not to doing anything to the advantage of the donor but rather - for example - to achieving something with/in one's life, like reaching a certain age, getting married, having one's first child, etc.

However, under Swiss law a donation à charge might differ from its French cousin in that it might indeed be conditional rather than remunerative, if the following example is anything to go by:
https://entscheide.weblaw.ch/cache.php?link=30.05.2007_4A_28...
This deals with the gift of a collection of paintings to the City of Geneva, with the condition that "La collection sera présentée d'une façon permanente. Elle sera exposée comme un ensemble cohérent, groupant dans une ou plusieurs salles les tableaux et les objets donnés selon une disposition logique".
But
"Le musée n'avait rien entrepris pour préparer la réception et l'exposition de la collection complète. De plus, le tableau avait disparu du musée. La charge convenue lors de la donation n'était pas honorée et cette libéralité était donc nulle; le tableau devait être restitué. Le 30 janvier 2002, le conseil juridique de Françoise Varenne a confirmé la révocation de la donation."
"La Fête au village aurait dû être exposée au public conformément aux modalités de la donation; de ce point de vue, la charge convenue n'avait été que partiellement respectée puisque le tableau était resté absent du musée pendant près de quatre ans,mais l'inexécution n'était pas suffisamment grave pour justifier une révocation".
Here too, the notion of contrat raises its ugly head:
"Il est évident que pour chacune des parties, lors de la conclusion d'un contrat, l'exécution promise par l'autre partie est un élément nécessaire de ce contrat. Néanmoins, les dispositions précitées n'ont pas pour objet de protéger la partie qui est, le cas échéant, déçue dans son attente. En règle générale, si elle le souhaite, cette partie peut se départir du contrat selon les règles concernant la demeure du débiteur (art. 107 al. 2 et 109 al. 1 CO). Dans le cas particulier de la donation grevée d'une charge, le donateur jouit d'un droit de révocation spécifique (art. 249 ch. 3 CO). Au regard de ces règles, il est indifférent que l'inexécution fût éventuellement prévisible dès la conclusion du contrat"

Here, however, charge implies a financial return to the donor in the form of a reprise de dette, so we're back to square one.
"On relève ici que l'on pourrait considérer la reprise de dette comme une charge imposée au donataire par l'acte de donation (v. le texte même de cette disposition). Or, la doctrine tend à opérer une distinction, effectivement, entre la donation assortie de charges et la donation mixte"
https://entscheidsuche.ch/kantone/vd_vwvfger/FI.2003.0011.ht...

It might also be worth Googling donation assortie de charges and donation grevée d'une charge, along with variants thereupon, and not just donation avec charge.

Here we have a Swiss definition of a donation conditionnelle with a distinction between that and a donation assortie d’une charge, although the latter does not seem to imply payment to the donor, but rather services that will cost the donee:

"La donation peut être conditionnelle: ses effets dépendent alors de la réalisation d’une condition fixée par les parties. Si la condition est suspensive, la donation ne déploiera ses effets qu’au moment où cette condition se réalisera, par exemple à la réussite d’un examen. Si la donation cesse de déployer ses effets à la réalisation de la condition, celle-ci est dite résolutoire. Le bien est transféré tout de suite, mais pourrait revenir au donateur, par exemple en cas de prédécès du donataire (voir page 18). La donation peut également être assortie d’une charge, soit l’obligation pour le donataire de faire ou de s’abstenir de quelque chose: par exemple charge pour le donataire de loger une personne dans la maison qu’il a reçue ou de s’abstenir d’une activité déterminée. La charge doit être convenue à titre accessoire: le donataire peut s’en libérer si la valeur de la donation ne couvre pas les frais que la charge occasionne. En revanche, le donateur peut révoquer la donation si le donataire n’exécute pas la charge de manière injustifiée. A Genève, les droits fiscaux sont dus au moment de la conclusion d’une donation, même conditionnelle."
https://www.ebene-avocats.fr/le-rapport-a-la-succession-d-un...

For Switzerland, I tend to see this as 'conditional gift', even if the condition is a 'charge'.




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Note added at 7 hrs (2023-03-31 22:06:27 GMT)
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For anyone having trouble "wading through" this, I suggest you do what I do (for I find it difficult to read these looooong lines (as texts appear on my screen anyway)).

I copy an answer into Word, increase the font size and reduce the margin so the text is more or less newspaper-column width. I have a macro to make it quick and simple.

Hint: I find that reduced width is also an excellent presentation for rereading on-screen, and I inevitably pick up things I didn't see either on paper or on the standard screen presentation.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2023-03-31 22:07:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The hint referring to my own translation work, of course.


Bourth
France
Local time: 20:54
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 42
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks for taking the trouble to post all of this. FYI the POA is from Switzerland


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: This is way too much information to wade through, and I don't think "charge" works, but I skipped to the end and found that it means "conditional or unconditional" in Switzerland.
2 hrs
  -> It would indeed have been simpler if I had found the easy answer in a book. In my defence, I had to have two bites at the apple, what with the geographical amendment.

neutral  Andrew Bramhall: Also surprised that a certain person hasn't yet waded into the debate....
4 hrs
  -> The more the merrier.
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7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
conditional or unconditional lifetime gifts / gifts inter vivos /


Explanation:
> in hono(u)r of Conor McA's idea implicitly endorsing my construction or originating summons points stamped on by the asker in a previous 'inopposabilité de la donation' question (see below) and that could still IMO encompass a gift subject to a charge, either of a legacy or tax, the latter whether or not the donor or donee bears the tax payable. Cut to the UK scenario of inheritance tax or capital transfer tax of old and in 'my day'.

Apologies to my 'IMHO fans', but I have been having keyboard gremlin and PC crashing problems.

'.....High Court originating or construction (interptetation) summons asking the court whether the gift is:

1. *conditional*
2. *unconditional*
3. in the nature of a trust
4. void against a trustee in bankruptcy, receiver or liquidator as made within the last year or two to avoid or defraud creditors.
PS I can't recall the question being asked of whether a gift had been binding. If so, on whom...'

No need to close he question 'without grading' !


    Reference: http://eng.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/7118...
Adrian MM.
Austria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 359

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  philgoddard: Bourth has already said this.
4 hrs
  -> 1. Neither term of conditional vs. unconditional, nor lifetime gifts (aka gifts inter vivos, in that order) included in that answer 2. with or without charges is ambiguous for charged with a legacy fund or tax. You ought to know that as an accountant.

neutral  Conor McAuley: Cheeky! / Sorry, I didn't read the body of your answer initially.
15 hrs
  ->  Go raibh maith agat any road and congrats to AT on controlling his temper and picking a 'different' answer !
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22 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
conditional and unconditional inter vivos gifts


Explanation:
I reached my answer independently...as my slow working-out demonstrates!
With a very reliable English-language reference.

But, at 2 hours...

Bourth posted,

"'Obligation' might work, but not 'condition",

followed, much further on, by

"For Switzerland, I tend to see this as 'conditional gift', even if the condition is a 'charge'",

plus an Agree from Phil that I didn't see (I was trying to multitask).

Also Emmanuella seems to have posted and then removed a cryptic Discussion entry...

All that being said, award the points as you wish, AllegroTrans.
I enjoyed exercising my brain a bit, that's enough for me.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2023-04-01 13:28:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Also see my Discussion entries, obviously.

Conor McAuley
France
Local time: 20:54
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 210
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks but "or" not "and"

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