Delaina (asker) May 30, 2023:

word-bearers considering this.

Delaina (asker) May 30, 2023:

word/speech/breath: reply from author Hi all, I've sent my draft translation to the author with questions and received his replies. Here's what I asked re 'porteurs de souffle' and what he said:

-souffle = ‘breath’; ‘inspiration’ (créative); ‘vie’; ‘parole’ (message) L'idée est la transmission de la parole des ancêtres ?

-Oui, ici, la transmission de la parole qui éveille, qui élève, qui fait grandir celui qui l’a écoutée.
De manière générale, les tégués utilisent indistinctement le mot parole et le mot souffle.

I feel a closer translatio may still be out there, but I'm using 'bearers of the spoken word' at the moment.

Mpoma May 19, 2023:

Ah yes ... in fact the word souffle here means, fittingly from an etymological standpoint, "inspiration", above all.

TLFi puts it well: "D. Au fig. [Le souffle en tant qu'influence immatérielle qui inspire un créateur; à propos d'un artiste, d'un écrivain, d'un homme de science ou de son œuvre] Énergie créatrice, richesse d'inspiration. Le souffle du génie; le souffle d'un écrivain. [Meissonier] apparaît actuellement (...) comme (...) n'ayant jamais rien pensé de grand ou de profond, sans souffle, sans largeur, sans originalité (MAUCLAIR, De Watteau à Whistler, 1905, p. 162).
Un souffle de + compl. désignant l'auteur, l'artiste ou le lieu que rappelle l'œuvre ou qui l'a inspirée. Il y a dans Berkeley comme un souffle de Malebranche, et Wolf est un écolier de Leibniz (COUSIN, Hist. gén. philos., 1861, p. 525)."

I find that the expression "porteur de souffle" is often applied to a prophet, and by extension to allegedly influential artists of more modern times.

But inspiration, and prophets, are concerned with the reverse of preservation of memory: this is about the creation of something new.

Mpoma May 19, 2023:

"Les Africains et d'autres" ... cette expression me met en gaité, merci.

ph-b (X) May 19, 2023:

Mpoma a écrit "this desire to impose "purity" on someone else's culture is perhaps one of the worst colonialist attitudes."

Sauf qu'il est désormais reconnu, depuis de nombreuses années, que les Africains et d'autres [nations ou peuples, Mpoma n'aurait apparemment pas compris] sont parfaitement capables de transmettre leur héritage sans être nécessairement influencés par les Européens. Prétendre le contraire aujourd'hui, now that is perhaps one of the worst colonialist attitudes.

"I note you don't have any response to my suggestion"
Peut-être parce que nul n'est obligé de réagir à tout ce qu'écrit Mpoma !

Quoi qu'il en soit, j'en ai terminé avec cette question, ne serait-ce que parce Delaina a fait le bon choix en ce qui me concerne.

Mpoma May 19, 2023:

@ph-b "Now that gem sends us back... what?... seventy years in the field of cultural history?"
Quite ironic. I note you don't have any response to my suggestion, which I thought was clear enough really, that this desire to impose "purity" on someone else's culture is perhaps one of the worst colonialist attitudes.

To date no-one has produced any actual evidence of any kind that porteur de souffle can mean "bearer of a message". It hinges on the idea of what Okoundji means by "souffle". We have not one quote on this from him and no-one has provided any quotes, allusions, explanations or references of any kind.

I actually think Okoundji may well confirm that that's what he means. But anyone here supporting that view on the basis of what we have seen is interpolating, in a way which actually reflects rather questionable, stereotyping attitudes towards Congolese culture.

Delaina (asker) May 19, 2023:

FR/FR forum/author Thanks for the idea of posting on the FR/FR forum, I hadn't considered that. And yes I'm in contact with the author and will also be asking him. Many thanks!

Delaina (asker) May 19, 2023:

Thanks Thanks for the valuable contributions from @ph-b also

ph-b (X) May 19, 2023:

Delaina Votre question aurait été mieux traitée si vous l'aviez posée en FR<>FR (français comme langue source et comme langue cible). Les gens qui répondent là ne regardent pas nécessairement les question FR>AN. Rien ne vous empêche de la reposer.

Sinon, l'idéal dans le cas de la traduction culturelle ou littéraire serait de prendre contact avec l'auteur.

Delaina (asker) May 19, 2023:

bearers of the spoken word Thank you @Bourth: 'bearers of the spoken word' works very well. I'll select your answer. Thank you for all the valuable contributions.

ph-b (X) May 19, 2023:

Mpoma wrote "I think the balance of probability lies that way".
Hardly qualifies as evidence of anything. Or shall I use Mpoma's own words: "just someone's opinion"/"That guff is merely the opinion of someone... and proves nowt".

Gare à ne pas imposer une notion européenne de "pureté" d'héritage culturel africain.
Now that gem sends us back... what?... seventy years in the field of cultural history?

ph-b (X) May 19, 2023:

Mpoma wrote "Your second quote just happens to use the word "souffle" in a standard cultural expression."

Not a standard cultural expression, but the title of a cultural event. Surely Mpoma can't ignore that titles are meant to introduce or summarize the text that follows. These words (souffle and parole) are not used randomly here.

ph-b (X) May 19, 2023:

"someone called Jacques Chevrier" Jacques Chevrier est un universitaire français.

Il est président de l'Association des écrivains de langue française, vice-président du Cercle Richelieu Senghor, directeur du Centre international d'études francophones (Université Paris IV ) et professeur émérite à l'Université Paris IV - Sorbonne. Il est membre associé du Centre de recherche en littérature comparée à l'Université Paris IV - Sorbonne.

from Babelio/Wikipedia (+ extensive bibliography on African literature, etc.)

Of course, someone called Mpoma will know a lot more about African cultural history than Jacques Chevrier.

Mpoma May 18, 2023:

@ph-b That first quote is by someone called Jacques Chevrier, so it's just someone's opinion, using typical flowery language, quoting an expression he found in Okoundji's poetry. This is not a quote by Okoundji.

Your second quote just happens to use the word "souffle" in a standard cultural expression.

No-one so far in this discussion has questioned the importance of "memory" or "parole" in African cultures.

I said explicitly that it is perfectly possible that the origin of this expression may not have been Judaeo-Christian for Okoundji, although I think the balance of probability lies that way. Gare à ne pas imposer une notion européenne de "pureté" d'héritage culturel africain.

You haven't addressed the question of the origin of "porteur de souffle" and you haven't produced any evidence that it means "conveyor of a message" particularly, any more than is implicit in the image from Genesis.

ph-b (X) May 18, 2023:

souffle = parole ? « Cependant Gabriel Mwènè Okoundji le rappelle tout au long de son œuvre : il est un passeur et il est un « porteur de souffle ». Il porte une parole souveraine, une parole ancrée dans l’oralité et par la même paradoxalement, une parole d’univers.
...
Gabriel Okundji poète des fleuves Congo et Garonne, inspiré de la parole ancestrale »

http://librairie-livresse.fr/livresse-en-peripherie-du-35eme...

La parole ancestrale/ancrée dans l’oralité : caractéristique de la transmission (le « portage » ?) traditionnelle entre générations africaines, du moins avant l'arrivée des Européens, d'internet, etc.

Voir aussi :
Souffle de l’horizon Tégué, destinée d’une parole humaine, poèmes audio sur CD, AFAC, 2008 (Prix « Coup de Cœur 2008 », de l’Académie Charles Cros.)

Ou :
« Des Antilles à la Guyane, de Madagascar à Mayotte : le souffle de l’Afrique au-delà du continent. Parole libérée et rythmes incandescents : à l’écoute du chant multiple "des afriques". »
https://www.printempsdespoetes.com/IMG/pdf/pdp19_dp_bag3-bde...

Sauf réf. explicite, gare à ne pas introduire d'élément judéo-chrétien dans une civilisation/tradition qui ne l'est pas.

Delaina (asker) May 18, 2023:

'soul messengers' :)

Delaina (asker) May 18, 2023:

'the breath of life' is certainly implied too I agree with you entirely that the biblical idea is present here as well. But I feel that conveying a message is the key idea. I'm not saying 'messengers' is the perfect solution. Still open to other suggestions, many thanks!

Mpoma May 18, 2023:

Inconclusive... ... as might perhaps be expected (since we're concerned with poetry).

This doesn't convince me particularly that porteur de souffle conveys within itself the idea of "messenger". The diseurs d'essentiel can easily be read as a epithet, i.e. that they *combine* this quality with that of porteur de souffle.

The 3rd line is perhaps slightly more persuasive, "murmuraient dans mon oreille, ces deux porteurs de souffle", but again this is perfectly compatible with a perception of these people having two distinct qualities, which are fortuitously combined. Perhaps indeed the power is greater if the two qualities are distinct?

The last line is, to my mind, very ambivalent/ambiguous. If you want to read into it an idea that souffle means some message, you can. I don't think it's clear though: this souffle qui a mûri seems more numinous than semantic to me.

Ultimately, the biblical idea to which I refer is not a million miles from conveying this idea of a "message" given to man (sorry, not woman!) by God.

Delaina (asker) May 18, 2023:

diseurs d’essentiel Here is the text that follows the above sentence:

"Parmi ces porteurs de souffle nobles diseurs d’essentiel, il y a eu la conteuse Ampili, ma tante-mère – une parole droite ne se détourne pas – disait-elle.
Il y a eu Pampou [...]
Voilà ma source ; et toute source a pour vocation l’apogée de sa coulée, murmuraient dans mon oreille, ces deux porteurs de souffle.
Ainsi, tout mortel qui acquiert cette transmission se doit d’apprendre à vivre, au jour le jour, à la nuit la nuit, en harmonie avec le monde qui l’entoure [...].
Et en moi s’est faite chair l’évidence que le poète est avant tout un initié : l’initiation étant la voie qui révèle la parole qui manque à la parole, [...].
J’habite donc le dire de mes deux maîtres, Ampili et Pampou. Je ne sais parler véritablement que leur langue, [...] C'est leur souffle qui a mûri dans mes veines et dans mon ventre."

He’s explaining where the inspiration for his poetry comes from, and it’s from these ancestral figures. This is the central concept to his work.

Delaina (asker) May 18, 2023:

Yes it's an idea that appears in this text and elsewhere in his writing. I'll send evidence of I can. Let's keep this discussion amicable.

Mpoma May 18, 2023:

There's no evidence for that notion ... ... (conveyors of a message) in the ST you've quoted. You seem to be interpolating, for reasons you haven't made clear.

Have you become convinced of that due to other things written in your text, or simply because of what Samuël has written? Samuël's notes are confused and unconvincing.

"Mwene" in Kikuyu means "owner" according to Wiktionary. Samuël appears to have got the idea that it means something more than this from here : https://www.afrik.com/gabriel-mwene-okoundji-ma-poesie-doit-... .

But although the "Mwènè" honorific may mean "porteur de mémoire", the ST uses the words "porteur de souffle", a substantially different expression, and there is no justification whatsoever to read things into that which aren't there. Just because someone has a title or honorific doesn't mean every word they write necessarily refers to the qualities of that title.

If your conviction is due to other things in your text, can we see them please?

Delaina (asker) May 18, 2023:

messengers Thanks to everyone: each contribution has helped. I’m grateful to @Mpona for highlighting the Biblical reference. I like ‘bringers of the breath of life’; however, I’m torn since I’m also drawn to the idea that ‘porteurs de souffle’ may refer more to those who transmit a message from their ancestral culture (since this idea is key to what he’s saying). I’m wondering if I’ll simply have to use ‘messengers’.

Mpoma May 17, 2023:

I think this is explicitly Judaeo-Christian ... though there is a possibility a) that Okoundji doesn't know that to be the origin and/or b) that a similar image arose independently in his Congolese culture (let's not forget how long Christians have been proselytising there though).

It's the image of God breathing life into Adam I'm thinking of, i.e. Sistine Chapel ceiling, all that stuff.

Being totally godless I had to look this up: "And LORD JEHOVAH God formed Adam of the dust from the soil, and breathed into his face the breath of life, and Adam was a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

For me there's no sense of "conveying a message" in this expression. Indeed, if you look at the whole phrase, "la palabre ennoblit l’éloquence des porteurs de souffle", this suggests that "the word*" (again, possibly suggestive of Christian overtones) has to be rustled up by or brought to these bringers of the breath of life.

* Yes, I am aware that palabre in French literally means "endless chitchat". But the etymology strongly aligns with la parole.

Samuël Buysschaert May 17, 2023:

@Phil you're right, i'm dealing with a bad headache I thought i had added the comment bit from Delaina but i didn't anyway so i edited accordingly, anyway tricky and interesting question, eager to see what peers might come up with.

interview intéressante:
http://focus-algerie.blogg.org/gabriel-mwene-okoundji-la-poe...

https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9P0096
https://www.bdlp.org/resultat?query=palabre

https://www.mollat.com/livres/3916/gabriel-okoundji-comme-un... //

philgoddard May 17, 2023:

I don't think inspiriters is a good idea - it's an obscure word, and therefore distracts you from the message. I had to check whether it even exists.

Samuël Buysschaert May 17, 2023:

Fwiw Just an idea,
Inspiriters is a good idea*; i like Ormiston's suggestion of using inspirational + ...; mb + an elegant word for "passeur" to quote the poet, to describe him as someone who carries and conveys the message.

Additional context, might help fellow colleagues to come up with sthg refined

"Je me considère comme un poète de l’oralité, plume à la main.
Un passeur de la parole reçue de mes aînés, ces diseurs d’essentiel, ces maîtres de la parole qui ne possédaient pas l’écriture de la langue mais ils en tenaient l’essentiel : la parole et le proverbe qui fécondent la lumière nécessaire au cheminement.
Ainsi ma quête est celle d’une poésie d’initiation et de la transmission qui n’a qu’un dessein : apprendre à l’homme à faire confiance à sa fragilité.
Alors, j’ai créé ma langue maternelle dans la zone d’intersection entre le tégué, ma langue parentale, et le français, ma langue d’écriture.
Ces deux langues coulent en moi ; quand l’une invoque, l’autre évoque, quand l’une donne, l’autre reçoit. de là, réside l’équilibre de ma quête poétique."
La transmission de la parole : d’une langue à l’autre Gabriel Mwènè Okoundji //*But misses the sense of 'porter un message' [Edit]

Delaina (asker) May 17, 2023:

re inspiriters But this misses the sense of 'porter un message', as explained by @Samuël Buysschaert

Delaina (asker) May 17, 2023:

re inspiriters But this misses the sense of 'porter un message', as explained by @Samuël Buysschaert

Delaina (asker) May 17, 2023:

Brilliant, thank you all I understand it now, thanks to you. I'm wondering about 'inspiriters' as a translation.

Samuël Buysschaert May 17, 2023:

Fwiw Pas évident de bien rendre cette notion,

Le concept existe en France, je ne saurais expliciter une définition ou l'origine mais la différence s'opère selon moi sur la notion de "souffle" qui peut signifier l'inspiration, la vie (comme Phil l'a indiqué) mais également signifier la parole, dans le sens de porter un message, de "porter la vie"(tradition orale de transmission aux générations).

Dans ce contexte, "Mwènè" semble être un titre signifiant "porteur de mémoire et détenteur d’une parole et d’un savoir", et semble également avoir une notion de chef spirituel pour un peuple, un guide qui transmet un message attaché à sa culture ancestrale.
Le porteur de souffle exprime des émotions et aussi des valeurs.

Je ne suis pas familier avec ses travaux mais ce "gardien/passeur" pourrait aussi être porteur d’un message d’espoir, i.e. de vie.

«La poésie, c’est la vie, c’est le souffle. Le chant poétique est avant tout ce qui rappelle à l’homme qu’il ne faut jamais désespérer malgré la blessure. Toute vie à sa charge de questionnements, d’interrogations. Mais ce poids, on ne peut le supporter que dans le chant de la parole poétique»
Gabriel Mwènè Okoundji, Le Cap, bimensuel, Alger

philgoddard May 17, 2023:

Something like lifegivers, maybe?

Emmanuella May 17, 2023:

Le souffle du poète, cf.
https://revues.be/francophonie-vivante/231-fv-4-2016/571-le-...

https://www.compagnie-resonances.fr/souffle-et-poesie