rkillings Mar 21, 2011:

mediamatrix is confused, and the outsourcer's advice is also bad.
What SJLD's source confirms is that 'dixmilliare' is the word in Belgium for one ten-thousandth *of an are*. By the standard conventions of metric system prefixes, this is a decimilliare -- or would be, if anyone elsewhere had a use for this unit.
A centiare is another word for square metre. A milliare is one-tenth of a centiare, so a decimilliare is one-tenth of that, or one-hundredth of a centiare/square metre. 40 decimiliares = 4 milliare = 0.4 square metre.
The Latin prefixes reduce, and the Greek prefixes increase, by a power of ten. A dekamilliare, if it existed, would be yet another word for centiare/square metre.
The outsourcer's advice for this sentence is bad because 'forty ten-thousandths' *alone* is ambiguous for coming after two potential antecedents. The correct antecedent is 'ares'. Either repeat it or, better, drop the centiares in favour of 'hundredths' so you have only antecedent.

mediamatrix (X) Mar 21, 2011:

Disagree with outsourcer In the course of this collective effort we have determined unequivocably (thanks largely to SJLD) that 'quarante dixmilliares' means "40 deca-milliares", in other words 0.4 square meters. Outsourcer's version corresponds to "40 deci-milliares", which is one hundred times smaller.
Outsourcer is of course entitled to deliver whatever he likes to his client, at his own risk, but that's no reason to be "adamant that (the translator he hired) must put" something that's patently incorrect.

Stéphanie Denton (X) (asker) Mar 21, 2011:

Outsourcer not happy Outsourcer is not happy with the proposed translations and is adamant that I must put: sever Ares twenty eight centiares and forty ten thousandths (taken directly from the "corrected" document - his words, not mine, even though he is a Russian native, not French, nor English...)

AllegroTrans Mar 20, 2011:

It certainly appears to help provided we can safely assume that the text should read "dixmilliares" and not "millemes" which appears to be Tunisian currency

SJLD Mar 20, 2011:

does this help? PDF] COMMUNE D'UCCLE AVIS D'ENQUETE DE COMMODO ET INCOMMODO En ...Format de fichier: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Afficher
24 févr. 2011 ... terrain communal de 81 centiares 40 dixmilliares (81,40 m²) sise à l'angle de la rue Edith Cavell et de la rue Roberts Jones, ...
www.uccle.be/fr/services-communaux/.../avis.../AvisdenquteE...

AllegroTrans Mar 20, 2011:

Should this be converted to acres or square yards? I say resoundedly NO. We are asked to translate, not perform mathematical somersaults. We don't know whether the reader is in the UK or the US, for all we know he/she could be an English speaking Estate Agent living in Belgium, think about it... and even if the reader is in dear old blighty, he will just have to get his own head into gear with ares, hein?

Stéphanie Denton (X) (asker) Mar 20, 2011:

@ Writeway Oh dear, I do not know.

Lucky you, living in Brussels though! I've only been once, in passing, and it looks gorgeous!

writeaway Mar 20, 2011:

Very strange Parc du Centenaire is very well known but I have never ever heard of any Troisième Avenue or the lieux dits Bruyère de la Croix Sainte Anne et Champ de Damvaert in all the years I've lived here. When surfing, Bruyère de la Croix Sainte Anne et Champ de Damvaert only show up under this question, together and/or individually. Maybe I should get out more.

Stéphanie Denton (X) (asker) Mar 20, 2011:

@ Writeaway It definitely is Brussels, and I'm assuming that they are known places, as the are on a PoA...

writeaway Mar 20, 2011:

what country is this from? there is a Parc du Centenaire in Brussels but Troisième Avenue and lieux dits « Bruyère de la Croix Sainte Anne et Champ de Damvaert » are 100% unknown or are they just fictitious names? So please do let us know where this is from. It could make a difference to the typo.

rkillings Mar 20, 2011:

Not quarante-dix The ten-word is attached to the unit: 'dixmilliares'. Ten-thousandths of an are makes perfect sense. Made on the model of 'dix-millième'. So what if it used to be décimilliare in France; this is Belgium. :-)

mediamatrix (X) Mar 19, 2011:

@AllegroTrans Ha ha. Nice idea, but I doubt the erstwhile author of the PoA, who was presumably a French-speaking Belgian national, would appreciate the association with the ideals of the IAL community.

That said, if, perchance, the author was a Flemish-speaking Belgian national, the quarante-dix = 50 theory might hold true...

AllegroTrans Mar 19, 2011:

quarante-dix? 20.
IALlist : Messages : 412-441 of 3739
IALlist: IALIist discusses the state of research in International Auxiliary Languages. ... Il en avait autour quarante-dix. La plupart est retrouvable parmi les listes ...
groups.yahoo.com/group/IALlist/messages/412?xm=1&m=e&l=1 - 207k - Cached

mediamatrix (X) Mar 19, 2011:

@Phil Good thinking!

philgoddard Mar 19, 2011:

Could "quarante-dix" be a typo for "quarante-six"?

mediamatrix (X) Mar 19, 2011:

@AllegroTrans Well, yes. But, as mentioned in the Proz forum earlier today, the outsourcer in question (who has been identified) is not a native French-speaker and is not, let's say, especially careful in his use of language in general. I'd go so far as to suggest that the outsourcer in question probably wouldn't realise the difference between 'milliare' and 'milleme' and 'millième' if they hit him in the face.

AllegroTrans Mar 19, 2011:

@ mediamatrix but asker is saying "MILLEMES" not millièmes

mediamatrix (X) Mar 19, 2011:

milliare = millièmes (de are) So actually it makes no difference.

The only outstanding 'problem' is 'quarante dix' of the 'thousandths of an are'.

AllegroTrans Mar 19, 2011:

Irrelevant, but this is what you get from Google #
Tunisian Dinar | CurrencyConverter.co.uk
The dinar is the official currency of Tunisia, nestled in the heart of the north of Africa. Each dinar is then divided into 1000 millemes (so
currencyconverter.co.uk/currencies/tunisian-dinar09032616... - Cached

AllegroTrans Mar 19, 2011:

In which case it doesn't appear to be part of the measurement of area (unless I'm missing something...)

Stéphanie Denton (X) (asker) Mar 19, 2011:

DIX MILLAIRES should be DIX MILLEMES This is what I have been told by the outsourcer.

mediamatrix (X) Mar 19, 2011:

@Stéphaine It's clear from the context that the property is in Belgium, but the use of 'quarante dixmilliares' is, let's say, "curious" (even for Belgium...). It might mean '50 milliares' (although I have never heard 'quarante-dix' used in Belgium to mean 50), or it might mean 'milliares x 10' (which I've never seen either). Makes me wonder what date is associated with these measurements - it certainly doesn't seem 'modern'.

rkillings Mar 19, 2011:

milliare, not millaire rarely seen, but milliare = 1/1000th of an are

mediamatrix (X) Mar 19, 2011:

Presumably ... ... they are stating the area to an extreme precision to highllight the fact that it's 7 ares 28 and a bit centiares, and not the 7 ares 13 centiares mentioned in the land registry documents.

mediamatrix (X) Mar 19, 2011:

@Stéphanie Why do you say "DIX MILLAIRES is incorrect and should be DIX MILLEMES"? The quoted source text says "quarante dixmilliares" (not 'MILLAIRES'). That is equivalent to 400 milliares. The milliare is a valid unit of land measure, although it is unusual for any property to actually be measured to that degree of precision.