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Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

con arcos y flechas se hace señor

English translation:

with bow and arrow Love/Cupid conquers

Added to glossary by Lydia De Jorge
Jul 1, 2019 02:03
4 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Spanish term

con arcos y flechas se hace señor

Spanish to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature poesía barroca española - EL BAILE DE LA GASCONA
Dear colleagues,
I can't seem to be able to make heads or tails of the first stanza. It's quite possible that the meaning is staring right at me but I can't see it. Suggestions are welcome and appreciated. Thanks in advance.

¿Dónde va la niña bonita a buscar el amor?
Pues volando con alas combate,
**con arcos y flechas se hace señor.**

No te fíes de un niño ciego, que no es honor,
porque a un niño vendado y travieso
dejarle jugando será lo mejor.

Pues tu cara es lucida, trigueña, de buen color,
no la entregues por fácil empleo
a hombres risueños que muestran amor.
Proposed translations (English)
5 Love dominates/ masters/ takes control with bow and arrow
3 +4 Bows and arrows make a man
3 +1 With arrows and bows one gains control
3 with bows and arrows, she dominates
3 with bows and arrows, she becomes the master
3 with bows and arrows she becomes a "lord"

Discussion

Lydia De Jorge (asker) Jul 6, 2019:
Thanks to all! I really appreciate your input. I've concluded that it's not referring to the 'girl' but to Love/Cupid. Beatriz had suggested this and I believe she's right.
Lydia De Jorge (asker) Jul 6, 2019:
@Beatriz After researching and giving this a lot of thought, I have to agree that it is, in fact, referring to Love/Cupid. I would prefer not closing without grading and am hoping you decide to post an answer. Thanks!
Lydia De Jorge (asker) Jul 2, 2019:
@Lester Right you are!
Lester Tattersall Jul 2, 2019:
@Lydia. Well, the writer managed to refer to him without mentioning him. The ref. to bow and arrow (singular better, maybe), and a blindfolded boy (Cupid is blindfolded, right? or is that just the Statue of Liberty?) should be enough. If they don't get it, it's just too bad.
Lydia De Jorge (asker) Jul 2, 2019:
Cupid/Love After researching and reading all the valuable references and opinions here expressed, I would have to agree it refers to Cupid. The question now is how to include the little bugger without naming him!
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro Jul 2, 2019:
@Carol Could be, but it's hard to say because neither the poem nor the poet/musician that wrote it are well known. In any case, the classical [Greco-Roman] reference to Cupid rules out the Middle Ages.
Carol Gullidge Jul 2, 2019:
@ Beatriz Hi, yes I understand it's Baroque literature, but I just wonder what period the poem is set in... Could it in fact be about a previous century, in the same way that, e.g., Tennyson wrote "The Passing of Arthur" so many centuries later, or Shakespeare wrote so many historical plays...? And this fiction, after all, no?
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro Jul 2, 2019:
@Carol Yes, Eleanor was "una mujer de armas tomar" a few centuries earlier. According to Lydia's question this is Baroque literature, so basically 17th century [from the end of the 16th well into the 18th].
JohnMcDove Jul 2, 2019:
The literary tradition re: "señor =amada" is a very well known datum, that probably a Spanish high school student could be aware of. I had the good luck of having Victoria Cirlot as a professor back in 1982, when she delivered her "Literaturas Romances" at the Barcelona Central University... Here is another reference.
Naturalmente, la equiparación de la amada/señor con un castillo que el caballero debía conquistar por medio de la guerra, era en sí misma una inversión absurda de la fidelidad, pues que el leal vasallo intentara servir al señor/dama asaltando su fortaleza para una vez vencida apoderarse de él/ella y de su bien más preciado (virginidad), era en términos feudales un delito de traición. https://www.academia.edu/5201044/Representaciones_femeninas_...
Lydia De Jorge (asker) Jul 1, 2019:
Thanks to all! Discussions have been quite enlightening and fascinating! I still haven't decided how to word it but I think I'm headed in the right direction.
JohnMcDove Jul 1, 2019:
This looks like a good explanation for "midons" literally "mi dominus" "my feudal lord"
https://books.google.com/books?id=SNkTVLTvZmwC&pg=PA323&lpg=...
JohnMcDove Jul 1, 2019:
@ Carol. I don't think so. (Somehow I cannot open your link). In this one is given as "my lord" https://www.encyclopedia.com/literature-and-arts/language-li... The Beloved. The lady to whom the song, or suit, is addressed is a stereotype. Physically she is blond and fair, with stylized features and figure that vary little within the tradition. She may be addressed with the masculine midons (my lord); and the relation, in many of its formal aspects, between lover and lady is a highly conventional sexual version of the feudal relation between lord and vassal. The lady is almost invariably someone else's wife; and, if she is not, the love proposed by the knight is rarely directed explicitly toward marriage. In medieval religious terms, therefore, courtly love is nearly always illicit and usually adulterous. A major source of excitement in the songs is the threat of discovery by a jealous husband. Variations of this form, however, appear early in the tradition, and the nature of fin amor from this point of view is one of the most important aspects of its literary history.
Carol Gullidge Jul 1, 2019:
@ John Btw, I'm not denying that your quote does exist in Wikipedia; however, I do wonder who wrote that article (the milord one), and would need to see this corroborated elsewhere.
And I still can't see how it fits the particular line in question!
Carol Gullidge Jul 1, 2019:
@ John surely "midons" means "my lady"...No?

https://variety.com/2003/legit/reviews/midons-or-the-object-...
JohnMcDove Jul 1, 2019:
Yes, "Love" is the subject of "becoming the lord" But also the lady becomes the "lord" as it can be seen in Courtly love:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtly_love
Poets adopted the terminology of feudalism, declaring themselves the vassal of the lady and addressing her as midons (my lord), which had dual benefits: allowing the poet to use a code name (so as to avoid having to reveal the lady's name) and at the same time flattering her by addressing her as his lord. The troubadour's model of the ideal lady was the wife of his employer or lord, a lady of higher status, usually the rich and powerful female head of the castle.
So the "niña bonita" the pretty girl becomes "midons" and that solves the conundrum.
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro Jul 1, 2019:
@Lydia Hi Lydia, more than Cupid blinding you, he shoots blindly, so his pairings are both irrational and unpredictable. Beware!
Cecilia Gowar Jul 1, 2019:
This is how I understand it Since it flies with wings and fights,
with bow and arrows becomes the lord
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro Jul 1, 2019:
Thanks Lester but I wouldn't dare to translate 17th-century poetry into English! I just wanted to explain the meaning. The structure is very obvious in Spanish because amor refers both to the feeling of love and to el dios Amor which is synonymous with Cupido. It's a well-worn image, so go ahead and post a nice answer.
Lester Tattersall Jul 1, 2019:
You should post it as an answer, Beatriz:
Cupid takes control with a bow and arrow. Or something similar.
Maybe:
The fight is fought with flying wings
Control is gained with a bow and arrow.

so as to actually avoid mentioning Cupid, as the original does.
Carol Gullidge Jul 1, 2019:
I also thought this for a while, and still agree with the general interpretation, but on reflection, am not totally convinced that this interpretation actually translates the term in question.
Lydia De Jorge (asker) Jul 1, 2019:
@Beatriz Yes! Now it makes perfect sense! Thank you! It is a warning against Cupid blinding you into falling for the 'wrong' man. Brilliant!
Lydia De Jorge (asker) Jul 1, 2019:
@Toni, That was my first thought too, but apparently there is no comma missing.
Cecilia Gowar Jul 1, 2019:
Not anonymous! It is by Luis de Briceño. But he was a musician, so he might have used a popular poem.
Cecilia Gowar Jul 1, 2019:
Agree with Beatriz Love is the one who becomes the master with bow and arrow (quite a familiar image!!). As for punctuation, I would not put a lot of stock in... isn't this oral tradition?
Lester Tattersall Jul 1, 2019:
Yes, Beatriz, very good.
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro Jul 1, 2019:
Love/Cupid is the subject. It should be read as:

Where are you going, pretty girl, in search of love?
He [love/Cupid] fights with flying wings
He takes control [becomes a lord] with bows and arrows.

It goes on with the "beware of Cupid" theme [let the naughty, blindfolded boy play by himself]
Toni Castano Jul 1, 2019:
Another possible reading Lydia: Are you sure the punctuation of this stanza is right?
After reading the last verse of the stanza I had the feeling (just a feeling though) that a comma might be missing. I mean the following:
**con arcos y flechas se hace, señor.**
**with bows and arrows it is achieved, my lord.**

Well, this is just a possibility. The only version online I found has no comma either...

Proposed translations

5 days
Selected

Love dominates/ masters/ takes control with bow and arrow

Hi Lydia,
As I said, I wouldn't dare to translate 17th-century poetry into English! I just gave a literal translation in order to explain the meaning of which I am certain (thus my maximum level of confidence).

The structure is very obvious in Spanish because amor refers both to the feeling of love and to el dios Amor (synonymous with Cupid), but you might need to change the English structure into something like:

Pretty girl, don't give your heart away
for love fights with flying wings
and dominates with bow and arrow

I'm sure that you will find the best way. Good luck!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you! You're right! It is referring to LOVE/CUPID and not the 'niña bonita'."
17 mins

with bows and arrows, she dominates

Where goes the pretty girl, looking for love?
Well, she flies, with valiant wings,
With bows and arrows, she dominates.

Don't trust a blind child; there's nothing honorable about that,
Because the best thing to do with a truly naughty boy, already bandaged,
Is to leave him playing by himself. That will be better.

Well, you have a pretty face, brown-hair. It's of good color.
Don't give it up for easy use,
To laughing men who (pretend to) show love.
Something went wrong...
59 mins

with bows and arrows, she becomes the master

Ends up controlling the feelings of men.
Something went wrong...
+1
5 hrs

With arrows and bows one gains control

I don't think the girl can be the subject of "se hace señor".
And I'd prefer "arrows and bows" to "bows and arrows", which, to my ears at any rate, sounds trite and infantile.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Linda Grabner : I have to disagree with you on this one, Lester, at least in terms of syntax. "Bows and arrows" is such a strong collocation that reversing the order could sound jarring and "nonnative".
4 hrs
Maybe not now - it's considered too dangerous perhaps - but when I was a boy, all of kids had bows and arrows, and we would often play "bows and arrows", so the collocation sounds childish to me.
agree JohnMcDove : Actually, both love and the girl become "midons" i.e., "my lord" as in the tradition of Courtly love. See Wiki link in discussion. :-) // Agree with you that the interpretation of "bows and arrows make a man" is missing the mark.
7 hrs
Thanks John. Agree with u that Beatriz has hit nail on head. Definitely. Have looked at link, interesting,but can't see link with this, 2 b honest. "hacerse señor de" is, to my mind, take control of, become the boss, etc, like "hacerse dueño y señor de"
Something went wrong...
+4
5 hrs

Bows and arrows make a man

I read this slightly differently; the way I see it is that the girl is being advised on where to find a worthy suitor - the answer is on the battlefield, where men really are men.
She is being advised not to fall for anything less.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2019-07-01 16:12:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

this is (vaguely!) my interpretation of the stanza, and please don't take it as a suggested translation! It is merely to show where I'm coming from...

Where does a pretty girl go looking for love?
Well, take to your wings, and fly off to battle,
For of fighting and strife are real men made.

-----
it then continues with warnings not to fall for (Cupid's) wayward arrows nor for the false smiles of anyone feigning love, etc.... But all this has already been admirably covered by Beatriz!



Peer comment(s):
agree neilmac : I'm keeping my opinion of the other suggestions under my hat…
27 mins
Thanks Neil! Me too, as in “Manners maketh man”; but I’m not sure how this is being pitched linguistically.// probably wise :)
neutral Lester Tattersall : Well, it was certainly a good shot! But it now appears you both missed the target:)
4 hrs
erm, maybe, maybe not, I remain to be totally convinced... and I'm not sure how you can be so certain!
agree Linda Grabner : I like this interpretation. That's the great (and often most frustrating) thing about poetry: it's so open to interpretation! (Reader response theory lives?)
4 hrs
Thanks Linda! Indeed, it is!
agree philgoddard
6 hrs
thanks Phil!
neutral JohnMcDove : From a Spaniard viewpoint, and while it could have this nuance, it seems a bit more off the mark. Beatriz explanation in the discussion is the most plausible one. On that, I am pretty certain. :-)/Also see the link on Courtly love./See additional sources.
7 hrs
Hard to be sure, but agree wholeheartedly with a good deal of Beatriz's explanation - just not ALL of it! But I'm far from convinced by your Wiki article. This is Wiki, after all, and hence at times to be taken with a hefty pinch of salt!
agree franglish
9 hrs
thanks franglish!
neutral Beatriz Ramírez de Haro : Hi Carol, bows and arrows were widely replaced by gunpowder during the 16th century in the battelfields of Europe; they would not be seen as particularly "manly" in 17th century Spain, not even metaphorically. // No space left, see "discuss".
13 hrs
thx Beatriz! Have to admit the image did bring a titter! Having said that, Eleanor of Aquitaine lived in the 12th century, and she had a thing or two to say to the men of her day! Do we know the setting/dates of this poem?
Something went wrong...
19 mins

with bows and arrows she becomes a "lord"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupid

It just seems a reference to love "becoming" Cupid.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2019-07-01 15:02:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

See discussion.

It seemed to me pretty obvious, by giving the reference to Cupid that this will answer the question.

But the point of the poem is that the "pretty girl" by finding "love" she becomes the "lord" (midons) (my lord) as this is in the tradition of Courtly love, where the man, the troubadour, is a vassal of his loved one...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtly_love
(quote from the link)
Poets adopted the terminology of feudalism, declaring themselves the vassal of the lady and addressing her as midons (my lord), which had dual benefits: allowing the poet to use a code name (so as to avoid having to reveal the lady's name) and at the same time flattering her by addressing her as his lord. The troubadour's model of the ideal lady was the wife of his employer or lord, a lady of higher status, usually the rich and powerful female head of the castle.
(end of quote)

Of course, Cupid helps the girl with "bows and arrows" but you (girl) should not trust a blindfolded winged kid...

¡Saludos cordiales!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2019-07-01 15:09:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Love" overpowers the "victim" of love, who is then the vassal of the "Lord" (midons, my lord).

Thus "Love" becomes the "Lord", and metonymically speaking "my lord is my love, my love is my lord" -- Simple.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2019-07-01 17:38:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Definiciones

«En el denominado "amor cortés" el amante se comporta con la amada en forma muy semejante a como debe hacerlo el vasallo con su señor».

http://jorgemanrique.alinome.net/amorcortes.php

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2019-07-01 17:41:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

She may be addressed with the masculine midons (my lord); and the relation, in many of its formal aspects, between lover and lady is a highly conventional sexual version of the feudal relation between lord and vassal.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/literature-and-arts/language-li...

The examples of this usage are many and well documented...

https://books.google.com/books?id=SNkTVLTvZmwC&pg=PA323&lpg=...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2019-07-01 17:49:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Árabe: sayyidí mi señor o mawlanga mi dueño
De este modo, los emires se declararon servidores de sus amadas.
En Provenza esto se imitó porque, asimismo, se reprodujo la relación de vasallaje, propia del sistema feudal.
El amante era el vasallo de su amada por ello la llamaba:
Midons meus dominus

https://quizlet.com/23544908/amor-cortes-flash-cards/

con su señora/amada, similares a las relaciones feudales mantenidas por el vasallo respecto de su señor.

... Y tanto es así que con mucha frecuencia se dirige a la dama designándola con el término midons, o sea, meus dominus, "mi señor", en forma gramatical masculina, aunque rija adjetivaciones femeninas (midons es belha), aspecto que recogerán los poetas cultos ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=FmHTX6p1qo4C&pg=PA20&lpg=P...

At this point, the poem makes its point.

Nothing to add, Your Honor. ;-)
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : sorry, but I'm not at all convinced by the Wiki article and wonder who wrote it, especially as I found it contradicted elsewhere.
13 hrs
Thank you, Carol. I gave you a couple of additional sources at the "discussion" and also now in the answer. To me, this is patently the clear meaning.
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