| صفحات الموضوع: < [1 2] | The use of "shall" and "will" in first person singular and plural ناشر الموضوع: Tjasa Kuerpick
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I completely agree with Steven that this can't be seen as dumbing down, unless we are to contemplate a transational conspiracy of millions of sloathful users bent on destroying the language. Or as a leading Catalan linguist put it: "El que la gent diu es el que la gent diu."
There are regional variations in the use of 'shall'. It has never been used much in ordinary speech in Ireland; Oscar Wilde famously asked an English friend to check over Dorian Grey for him, as he was uncertain... See more I completely agree with Steven that this can't be seen as dumbing down, unless we are to contemplate a transational conspiracy of millions of sloathful users bent on destroying the language. Or as a leading Catalan linguist put it: "El que la gent diu es el que la gent diu."
There are regional variations in the use of 'shall'. It has never been used much in ordinary speech in Ireland; Oscar Wilde famously asked an English friend to check over Dorian Grey for him, as he was uncertain of his wills and shalls, "being Irish".
[Edited at 2007-07-29 13:45] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I will drown ... | Jul 29, 2007 |
Tjasa Kuerpick wrote:
In my old English Grammar book (British English) it says we for first person "I shall sing" and "we shall sing". Now I have received a new grammar book from Britain in which "shall" is not mentioned anywhere, instead the author writes "I will" and "we will". What happened with shall?
You're all right. The use of "shall" with "I" and "we" is definitely dying out and is almost universally being replaced by "will", although as an old-fashioned thing I lament it.
There was a (Victorian I think) dictum that tried to illustrate how the misuse of "will" and "shall" could cause woe:
"I WILL DROWN AND NOBODY SHALL SAVE ME!" cried the man who had fallen into the canal.
i.e. I want to drown and I won't let anyone save me.
So he drowned.
Of course, language changes over time. As someone said, what about the disappearance of "thou" and "thee"?
I SHALL shut up now.
Regards,
Jenny.
| | | | | There is no reason to reject the use of "shall" | Jul 29, 2007 |
and you will not catch me doing it! I shall continue to use "shall", whether it is popular or not, and, if I am sent anything to proofread where I see the words "I will" or "we will" occurring in the text, I shall correct it.
The English verb correctly runs as follows:
I shall
Thou shalt
He/she/it will
We shall
You will
They will
I dare anyone to defy me!
The forms are reversed in the event of emphasis being requir... See more and you will not catch me doing it! I shall continue to use "shall", whether it is popular or not, and, if I am sent anything to proofread where I see the words "I will" or "we will" occurring in the text, I shall correct it.
The English verb correctly runs as follows:
I shall
Thou shalt
He/she/it will
We shall
You will
They will
I dare anyone to defy me!
The forms are reversed in the event of emphasis being required.
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| | | | Ken Cox 
Local time: 23:54
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| further comment | Jul 29, 2007 |
As a US native, I learned (long ago!) that the rule in British usage was that in the first person, 'shall' is used for the future and 'will' is used to express intention or desire, with exactly the opposite set of meanings for second- and third-person usage (just to keep things interesting, I suppose).
The examples that I remember are 'I shall drown' (meaning 'I'm going to drown') and 'I will drown' (meaning 'I am determined to drown') -- and of course the formulations 'I shall drown, and... See more As a US native, I learned (long ago!) that the rule in British usage was that in the first person, 'shall' is used for the future and 'will' is used to express intention or desire, with exactly the opposite set of meanings for second- and third-person usage (just to keep things interesting, I suppose).
The examples that I remember are 'I shall drown' (meaning 'I'm going to drown') and 'I will drown' (meaning 'I am determined to drown') -- and of course the formulations 'I shall drown, and no-one will save me' ('I'm going to to drown, and no-one is going to save me') and 'I will drown, and no-one shall save me' ('I intend to drown, and I won't allow anyone to save me').
As mentioned in various other answers, this usage has largely fallen out of fashion in current British English, and it simply did not exist in (relatively modern) US English, with the possible exception of literary or academic contexts. In US English 'will' is used for the future and 'want to' or 'intend to' for desire or intention. ▲ Collapse
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Tjasa Kuerpick
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بادئ الموضوع
The example ""Shall she go shopping?" was taken from the book, well the author of this sentence is a senior lecturer and language at the University of York in England, who has published many books for language teachers. I don t think he is wrong here. Well it is not used as example for future tense, but as an example for using modal auxiliaries.
As I don't think we are going to find an end to this shall/will usage especially regarding the future tense, I just want to demonstrate how... See more The example ""Shall she go shopping?" was taken from the book, well the author of this sentence is a senior lecturer and language at the University of York in England, who has published many books for language teachers. I don t think he is wrong here. Well it is not used as example for future tense, but as an example for using modal auxiliaries.
As I don't think we are going to find an end to this shall/will usage especially regarding the future tense, I just want to demonstrate how confusing this might be for a beginner or someone who has learned English a long time ago, especially when he is going to use a grammar book together with a dictionary (teachers often suggest that to their learners).
Just click on the both links to see:
http://www.onelook.com/?other=web1913&w=Shall)
or
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/shall?view=uk
… and still shall sounds more familiar to me for expressing future in BE, even though it would be more "practical" (read: colloquial) to use will in 1st person sg./.pl. 
Well i think I need some holidays in England .... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The use of "shall" and "will" | Jul 29, 2007 |
...persoanlly I have always used "will" being raised in the US, but I use "shall" in all my legal translations, as it is rather rare to find "will" in legal papers or laws.
| | | | lexical
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| ...well, well | Jul 29, 2007 |
All I can (or will) say is that I'm very surprised, indeed shocked, that a senior lecturer in English at a British university should give "Shall she go shopping?" as an example of English usage.
What does it mean? Is it an invitation? "Do you need some milk? Julia's not busy. Shall she go shopping?" I don't know anyone who would say it that way. "Shall I ask Julia to go shopping?" - certainly - or "Would you like Julia to go shopping?"
Or is it supposed to be a questio... See more All I can (or will) say is that I'm very surprised, indeed shocked, that a senior lecturer in English at a British university should give "Shall she go shopping?" as an example of English usage.
What does it mean? Is it an invitation? "Do you need some milk? Julia's not busy. Shall she go shopping?" I don't know anyone who would say it that way. "Shall I ask Julia to go shopping?" - certainly - or "Would you like Julia to go shopping?"
Or is it supposed to be a question about future intentions or plans? That would be even wierder, when what one would expect would be "Is she going shopping?"
It just goes to show how out of touch you can get if you are locked in an ivory tower.
Enjoy your holiday in England, Tjasa, if you get there. ▲ Collapse
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 17:54
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| "Shall she..." - No problem! Just give us a suitable context! | Jul 29, 2007 |
Scenario:
Jim and Jane at the breakfast table. Jane ponders, aloud: "Shall I go shopping? Or shall I go back to bed?" Jim retorts: "Knowing you, you'll go back to bed!"
Later, when Jane has disappeared, Mum arrives. "Where's Jane?", she asks.
"Dunno' Mum! - She was saying 'Shall she go shopping' at breakfast-time, but I don't where she is!"
******
... See more Scenario:
Jim and Jane at the breakfast table. Jane ponders, aloud: "Shall I go shopping? Or shall I go back to bed?" Jim retorts: "Knowing you, you'll go back to bed!"
Later, when Jane has disappeared, Mum arrives. "Where's Jane?", she asks.
"Dunno' Mum! - She was saying 'Shall she go shopping' at breakfast-time, but I don't where she is!"
******
Shall she go shopping - because she had pondered the matter in the first person singular.
Shall she go shopping - because this is reported speech and Jim is referring to Jane, a third person. And if Jim used "I" here, it would be as if he was himself wondering if he would be going shopping.
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Patricia Rosas
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احياء لذكرى | American Heritage Book of English Usage | Jul 29, 2007 |
I agree with those who say "language changes" -- we wouldn't be speaking as we now do if it didn't! Here is what one on-line guide to AMERICAN English says:
the traditional rules. The traditional rules state that you use shall to show what happens in the future only when I or we is the subject: I shall (not will) call you tomorrow. We shall (not will) be sure to keep in touch. Will, on the other hand, is used with subjects in the second and third persons: The comet will (not shall... See more I agree with those who say "language changes" -- we wouldn't be speaking as we now do if it didn't! Here is what one on-line guide to AMERICAN English says:
the traditional rules. The traditional rules state that you use shall to show what happens in the future only when I or we is the subject: I shall (not will) call you tomorrow. We shall (not will) be sure to keep in touch. Will, on the other hand, is used with subjects in the second and third persons: The comet will (not shall) return in 87 years. You will (not shall) probably encounter some heavy seas when you round the point. However, you can use will with a subject in the first person and shall with a subject in the second or third person to express determination, promise, obligation, or permission, depending on the context. Thus I will leave tomorrow indicates that the speaker is determined to leave. You shall leave tomorrow has the ring of a command. The sentence You shall have your money expresses a promise (“I will see that you get your money”), whereas You will have your money makes a simple prediction.
the reality. The English and some sticklers about usage are probably the only people who follow these rules, and then not with perfect consistency. In America, people who try to adhere to them run the risk of sounding pretentious or haughty. Americans normally use will to express most of the senses reserved for shall in British usage. Americans use shall chiefly in first person invitations and questions that request an opinion or agreement, such as Shall we go?, and in certain fixed expressions, such as We shall overcome. In formal style, Americans use shall to express an explicit obligation, such as Applicants shall provide a proof of residence, though must or should works just as well here. In speech you can get the distinctions in meaning delineated in the traditional rules by putting stress on the auxiliary verb, as in I will leave tomorrow (“I intend to leave”). You can also choose another auxiliary verb, such as must or have to, that is less open to misinterpretation, or you can make your meaning clear by adding an adverb such as certainly. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
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احياء لذكرى | Off topic: Thank you, José! | Jul 30, 2007 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
This is one of the numerous issues that kept me at a distance from CAT tools for years, and still keeps me out of clients who want discounts for 100% matches, fuzzy matches, and alikes. CAT tools make it too easy to treat such delicate differences as no-brainers and accept them as just the same thing.
Right now I am translating press releases for a product that I wrote technical literature for. My client insists on using this software. Now I have to override the suggestions given by this CAT-tool as I prefer to choose a different writing style for this kind of media. What on earth is the point? It's stealing my time.
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
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| We shall overcome! | Jul 30, 2007 |
I always thought this an American song. Or is it British after all?
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
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BarryT wrote:
"Tomorrow we'll be flying to Madrid."
And, as we all (should) know, this is short for "We shall be flying to Madrid".
I wonder how many people use "I'll' and "we'll" when speaking, precisely to avoid being thought posh (if they said shall) or slovenly (will)...
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Spring City (X)
Local time: 05:54
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| Dumbing down reflects poor education | Aug 8, 2007 |
We have entered a new age in which great books are off the curriculum. Many English children today do not read a sentence of Shakespeare at school, or Dickens or Austen for that matter. It looks like the new curriculum has its supporters on this list. I am rather sad to live through an age where "me too! dumbing down" is popular, even on a forum frequented by people who could be expected to be interested in language. As children today do not read good books, they are not exposed to good English.... See more We have entered a new age in which great books are off the curriculum. Many English children today do not read a sentence of Shakespeare at school, or Dickens or Austen for that matter. It looks like the new curriculum has its supporters on this list. I am rather sad to live through an age where "me too! dumbing down" is popular, even on a forum frequented by people who could be expected to be interested in language. As children today do not read good books, they are not exposed to good English. "Shall" has not completely disappeared from the English language, and although I do not think its use should be made compulsory I think the standard should at least be broad enough to include anything written by good authors in the Victorian period.
It is awkward to discuss a subject that has been claimed so thoroughly by the "modern linguistics" professors, who argue that as long as communication is achieved, there is little point in trying to establish which forms constitute good English. There is an English university whose English language department, so far from studying Shakespeare, studies the English of bus tickets instead. This is not intended as a joke: an English university has a course for those who wish to study the English of bus tickets. The joke is on us.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The "W" words involve the action itself, while the "SH" words involve the need for that action.
Compare:
a) I would have gone out if it were not raining.
In this case, the rain prevented me from going out.
b) I should have gone out, even if it were raining.
Here it implies that there was something important to be done ouside, and the rain is not an acceptable excuse for not having done it.
This is a fair statement of the dumbed down style of English, which is probably the most accessible form of English for foreign translators to learn. After all, the textbooks have all been rewritten to encompass this demotic English. But, just in case Lamensdorf and others are interested, the distinction in the future tense between shall and will had a parallel in the conditional between should and would. Sentence a), if written by a careful native speaker in the first half of the 20th century, would have been "I should have gone out if it were not raining". This usage is FAR from dead: it is the sort of language still used by upper middle-class people, the hat-wearing type of Tory party members, if I can put it like that.
This means that "should" has three meanings: 1) the conditional, I should have thought so. 2) "ought to": I should have done it, but I did not have time. 3) subjunctive usage: should I take up Latin, Cicero would no doubt be my favourite author.
"would" has two meanings: 1) the conditional, now largely used for all persons. I would have thought so. 2) imperfect: when I was little, we would take the bus to school every day. ▲ Collapse
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