| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Clients / large translation companies now talking about pooling linguistic data. Should we be there? Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
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Paul Greer
United States
Local time: 02:00
English to Arabic
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| Gentlemen, please.... | Aug 3, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
I think this, and no other reason, is why we are discussing TAUS' initiatives for so many days. Henry, if your intention is to create a TM or TU sharing tool in Proz.com, why don't you plainly explain your motives and goals, so that we can tell whether we can ─or feel allowed and entitled to─ use it? We are grown-ups, as somebody said here. We can take it.
In my opinion, Proz.com is doing a great job at comoditizing translation, with no lower limit to the rates in pairs where setting a lower limit would not be a problem, and a job bank that is no longer a job bank but an eBay auction where our rates go lower and lower.
Creating a TM sharing method here in Proz will probably take us to the next step: by allowing translators ─or those translators who are not too worried about privacy of their work─ to put their TUs in Proz.com, you will bring comoditization of translation a step further, as customers will have the feeling that anybody can translate a patent, a PIL, a manual, or a contract. This will again lower our rates in the near future.
Cross your heart Henry: Are you sure that your interest is to promote our well-being as translators? Or are you trying to promote Proz.com, your income and traffic? In a sense, these two goals look somewhat incompatible to me if the only way you see of promoting our well-being is commoditizing translation further and further.
With all due respect Tomás,
statements like these are exactly what I addressed in earlier posts. Obviously, you are very displeased with the developments in this industry. So where the Luddites. Although I can follow your line of thinking, this particular attitude in freelance translators is exactly what makes us as a corporation perceive a need to drive automation, as we do feel that "producers" of our product would like to deliberately limit supply chains in order to leverage us.
Picking one particular venue, demonizing it, and assigning guilt doesn't really work.
Sorry, no disrespect intended, but it really has to be said.
PS:
TAUS makes their data contributor model readily available to those interested, I'd strongly suggest to review them before "speculating" in these manners. Perceived problems may be non-existent after all.
Best regards
Paul
[Edited at 2008-08-03 23:51]
| | | | | Sensible proposals | Aug 4, 2008 |
RoyMarie wrote:
So what could ProZ do?
ProZ could help members develop new kinds of professional services that focus on translation related but not purely translation work, e.g.Translation Corpus development, Linguistic Consulting services, Data Normalization strategies etc.. and services from virtual expert panels that could e.g. advise global enterprises on the best way to convert a 100,000 page knowledge base into 10 languages, pulling in ProZ membership to help with the post-editing (for a fee of course).
I think this post is very interesting indeed. And I agree with RoyMarie that following the ways of TAUS would not be very sensible in the middle run. Opportunity exists to jump one step further, and doing so would be awfully interesting and probably profitable to many Proz members.
| | | | | Profits, not our attitude | Aug 4, 2008 |
AFLSSInc wrote:
statements like these are exactly what I addressed in earlier posts. Obviously, you are very displeased with the developments in this industry. So where the Luddites.
I think the comparison with Luddites is not a very successful one. But if that's the way you tag anyone who does not agree with your opinion about how a market should develop, I understand. I think technology could be used in far better ways to help translation as an industry.
Although I can follow your line of thinking, this particular attitude in freelance translators is exactly what makes us as a corporation perceive a need to drive automation, as we do feel that "producers" of our product would like to deliberately limit supply chains in order to leverage us.
My interpretation of TAUS' presentation was correct: there ARE enough translators, but TAUS members don't want to pay reasonable rates in the future. It's not a matter of companies disliking translators' attitudes about the evolution of the market. It's just about money and profits.
Picking one particular venue, demonizing it, and assigning guilt doesn't really work.
Who demonized Proz? I haven't described Proz as diabolic or mean. Just ─IMHO─ mistaken about how to help promote the greatness of translation and well-being of translators.
| | | | | Speaking of automation | Aug 4, 2008 |
Thanks, again, everyone.
I have learned a lot from this thread and I am applying what I have learned in making plans for the site's future. I have designated August a planning month. While I know you all are busy, I do hope to have your continued involvement, even with a short post, whenever you can spare the time.
On a related topic (well, automation anyway), I am now running a survey on "TMS" (translation management) s... See more Thanks, again, everyone.
I have learned a lot from this thread and I am applying what I have learned in making plans for the site's future. I have designated August a planning month. While I know you all are busy, I do hope to have your continued involvement, even with a short post, whenever you can spare the time.
On a related topic (well, automation anyway), I am now running a survey on "TMS" (translation management) systems. If you want to complete it, go to: http://www.proz.com/survey/169
The responses to that survey have prompted me to post another topic for your feedback. http://www.proz.com/topic/111739
Thanks in advance! ▲ Collapse
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Henry D wrote: Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
I think this, and no other reason, is why we are discussing TAUS' initiatives for so many days. You had a different theory, quite the opposite of this one, just yesterday. You perhaps think that everyone but you, having taken this topic at face value, has been fooled?
Maybe you have both motives: trying to have some presence in front of the big guys and building your own TM tool. What can you tell us about the TM tool in Proz? Is it happening in the near future?
Henry D wrote: Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
Cross your heart Henry: Are you sure that your interest is to promote our well-being as translators? To know what motivates me, and my team, you can just look around this site. I hope you find things that are valuable for your business.
Please don't ask! 
And of course, no offence about my name Henry. Now that I think of it... I am not sure who was the main player in choosing my name. I must ask. BTW: Why did you think it was my mother? Are mothers the ones who choose names in your family or the part of the world you come from? Who gave them that exclusive right and why? Interesting topic!
| | | | | Not sure why I used the expression | Aug 4, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote: Henry D wrote: Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
I think this, and no other reason, is why we are discussing TAUS' initiatives for so many days. You had a different theory, quite the opposite of this one, just yesterday. You perhaps think that everyone but you, having taken this topic at face value, has been fooled? Maybe you have both motives: trying to have some presence in front of the big guys and building your own TM tool. What can you tell us about the TM tool in Proz? Is it happening in the near future?
We have worked with many CAT tool vendors (25?) as an advertising partner to them. Watching them, frankly, it has always seemed like too much work. (OK, Yves somehow made it look relatively easy. But even he has been at it for ten years, having made a million posts to the Wordfast list...) Anyway, no, no plans to develop a TM.
(I have tried to get them for our members who don't yet use them, though. Both Metatexis and Fusion came free with membership at points in the past.)
Henry D wrote:
To know what motivates me, and my team, you can just look around this site. I hope you find things that are valuable for your business. Please don't ask!
Actually I pretty much know your position!
And of course, no offence about my name Henry. Now that I think of it... I am not sure who was the main player in choosing my name. I must ask. BTW: Why did you think it was my mother? Are mothers the ones who choose names in your family or the part of the world you come from? Who gave them that exclusive right and why? Interesting topic!
For some reason "Your mother named you well" was a set expression in my mind; even as I wrote it I thought it was a bit odd. A Google search now shows that the "mother" version is much more common than the "father" version (110 to 9). Nothing to do with the cultural norms around me, though. Funny.
| | | | Brandis (X)
Local time: 11:00
English to German
+ ...
Hi! I do not really wish to understand the sense of this posting. Are you now indicating that you would sell us (may be ) for a dollar difference, as a few have already pointed like Mark. We buy your services and the issues are transparent, that is fine with me, but why post this issue.
But if you wish to propagate a newer solution which is apparently better than your own, you infact do not need a public opinion.
As I had come to proz.com I was not looking at a commun... See more Hi! I do not really wish to understand the sense of this posting. Are you now indicating that you would sell us (may be ) for a dollar difference, as a few have already pointed like Mark. We buy your services and the issues are transparent, that is fine with me, but why post this issue.
But if you wish to propagate a newer solution which is apparently better than your own, you infact do not need a public opinion.
As I had come to proz.com I was not looking at a community representative that thinks in my interest, but things have developed in a manner that went beyond translation, it was a place for translators. BR Brandis ▲ Collapse
| | | | Niraja Nanjundan (X) 
Local time: 14:30
German to English
| Language data exchange | Aug 4, 2008 |
Reading through this thread again, it seems that most of the contributors have focussed on sharing TMs. However, the TAUS press release mentioned in the intial posting doesn't specifically mention translation memories but talks about a language search portal and language data exchange:
"...TDA...will include a language search portal for public use and a language data exchange facility for members. The language search allows translators, customer support, staff, product developers an... See more Reading through this thread again, it seems that most of the contributors have focussed on sharing TMs. However, the TAUS press release mentioned in the intial posting doesn't specifically mention translation memories but talks about a language search portal and language data exchange:
"...TDA...will include a language search portal for public use and a language data exchange facility for members. The language search allows translators, customer support, staff, product developers and marketers, end-users and any other professionals to find translations of phrases...The language data exchange allows members to provide and pool very large collections of parallel language data...The European Commission has also agreed to donate its parallel language data to be shared through TDA..."
I am sure that sharing of TMs is included in this, but I tend to agree with those who have referred to ProZ.com's KOG and feel that some of this is already going on at ProZ.com in the KudoZ system and with features such as GlossPost. When one searches the web for terms, one often comes across terms entered in the KudoZ glossary, making it accessible to all the groups of people and professionals mentioned in the press release.
I see nothing wrong in ProZ.com joining TAUS, but feel the quality of the KOG should also be improved on, so that ProZ.com, with the help of its members, can itself provide such a service, possibly donating its language data in the same way the European Commission is planning to do for sharing in the system suggested by TAUS. ▲ Collapse
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| | | Demonising... | Aug 14, 2008 |
AFLSSInc wrote: Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
In my opinion, Proz.com is doing a great job at comoditizing translation, with no lower limit to the rates in pairs where setting a lower limit would not be a problem, and a job bank that is no longer a job bank but an eBay auction where our rates go lower and lower.
Picking one particular venue, demonizing it, and assigning guilt doesn't really work.
I just wanted to say that this "particular venue" is one that is supposed to work in our favour, and not against it... having said that, I still think I did not demonise anybody. Each of us is by now perfectly able to decide whether Proz.com is good or bad for our business as a whole, depending on each person's experience. Good luck everyone!
| | | | | Money, money, money... it's not funny. Not at all. | Oct 30, 2008 |
Well, this thread seems to be dead for quite some time, but the TAUS issue is not. It's a very live and indeed a very pressing one.
The way I see it, all the "big playaz" want to make translators to poorly-paid reviewers. More importantly, it's about "crowdsourcing". Let's make the crowds work for us, no matter what the resulting quality will be. 90 % of world is rubbish anyway. The product's meant for the crowds, so why not have it d... See more Well, this thread seems to be dead for quite some time, but the TAUS issue is not. It's a very live and indeed a very pressing one.
The way I see it, all the "big playaz" want to make translators to poorly-paid reviewers. More importantly, it's about "crowdsourcing". Let's make the crowds work for us, no matter what the resulting quality will be. 90 % of world is rubbish anyway. The product's meant for the crowds, so why not have it done by the crowds?
Is anyone of you, guys, going to play your part in this foolish game? Certainly not me.
"Pooling linguistic data". "Sharing linguistic information". "Fat Boy". Why are we used to calling all the doomsday devices with such nice, euphemistic names?
"Sharing TMs". We had our experience with "sharing" in Eastern Europe.
Perhaps it is time we expressed our concerns in the TAUS forums before they close them for the public. I've done so already. Any support?
[Upraveno: 2008-10-30 12:57] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I couldn't agree more. | Oct 30, 2008 |
Stanislav Pokorny wrote:
Well, this thread seems to be dead for quite some time, but the TAUS issue is not. It's a very live and indeed a very pressing one.
The way I see it, all the "big playaz" want to make translators to poorly-paid reviewers. More importantly, it's about "crowdsourcing". Let's make the crowds work for us, no matter what the resulting quality will be. 90 % of world is rubbish anyway. The product's meant for the crowds, so why not have it done by the crowds?
Is anyone of you, guys, going to play your part in this foolish game? Certainly not me.
"Pooling linguistic data". "Sharing linguistic information". "Fat Boy". Why are we used to calling all the doomsday devices with such nice, euphemistic names?
"Sharing TMs". We had our experience with "sharing" in Eastern Europe.
Perhaps it is time we expressed our concerns in the TAUS forums before they close them for the public. I've done so already. Any support?
[Upraveno: 2008-10-30 12:57]
And add that I wonder how LEGAL all this is, mainly regarding translators' copyright.
mm
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Let alone their clients' copyrights...
| | | | NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 05:00
Member (2002)
French to English
+ ...
MODERATOR | I want to know more (money, money, bis) | Oct 31, 2008 |
I am signed up to receive all the broadcasts, meeting announcements, etc. from TAUS and I would really like to go as an ambassador to voice the many concerns translators have, and maybe come up with something good for us as well as the industry. I just can't afford it
Nancy
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Nancy Lynn Bogar wrote:
I am signed up to receive all the broadcasts, meeting announcements, etc. from TAUS and I would really like to go as an ambassador to voice the many concerns translators have, and maybe come up with something good for us as well as the industry.
Nancy
Hi Nancy,
I'd like to do that too. In fact, I've started to post on TAUS forums where Daniel Goldschmidt entered into a discussion with me in two different threads. However, no more reply after two of my last posts. Either they were too stupid to be even noticed, or there are no counterarguments.
Well, there are two basic ideas behind TAUS:
1) Unite all the biggest translation agencies (Skřivánek, Moravia IT, Applied Language etc...) + their key clients (Microsoft, HP...) and create a few "super-TMs". These super-TMs will be then used to pretranslate all incoming jobs. The translator will then check whether this or that pre-translated segment fits in the context and change a word now and then. As you can imagine, such jobs will be paid much less than regular translation.
The funny thing about this is, that translators are "cordially invited" (for a small fee, of course) to access this content, provided they add a bit of their own. In other words, you will add some content that will be used to pretranslate any future jobs. Or rip you off, if you want. So my question is: are translators going to work on their own death?
2) Have the crowds working on translation and l10n. The idea behind this crowdsourcing is, if the crowd likes the result, why not let it work on it. My suggestion that Adobe's crowdsourcing strategy resulted in poor-quality l10n of their SW was opposed with "90 % of what humanity produces is rubbish, including translations". So, would you like a milkman to work on your mother's appendix surgery? That's an example of crowdsourcing too, isn't it?
The problem of "by-the-crowds-for-the-crowds" translation is, how can the crowds know the result is correct? Imagine a crowdsourced l10n of CNC software. Imagine there is a mistake in the translation. Imagine that the CNC machine will chop an operator's hand off following a mistake in a poor translation.
Who will be made responsible? The crowd?
Who will make up for the poor operator's lost hand? The crowd?
The problem is, that TAUS is not after quality. It's after a severe drop in prices. It's after building a monopoly by pushing small and medium-size agencies out of the market. It's after having translators perform their jobs at half, if not third their price.
The strange thing is that even the EC agreed to this. But seeing who's sitting in Brussels, it is hardly surprising.
[Upraveno: 2008-10-31 20:58]
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