Germans try to get their tongues around gender-neutral language
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| | Eric Zink 
Local time: 08:09
Member (2012)
German to English
| comfortable and unfair? | Apr 1, 2014 |
I would take the opposite view. I find German uncomfortable, but not particularly unfair. The article genders, coupled with the case declinations, are a nightmare for foreigners, and I have the feeling that even native speakers don't master them completely. However, the addition of -Innen has never struck me as particularly helpful, since I never could see the problem it was meant to solve. However, I also don't see the problem with the English convention of using the masculine pronoun as the de... See more I would take the opposite view. I find German uncomfortable, but not particularly unfair. The article genders, coupled with the case declinations, are a nightmare for foreigners, and I have the feeling that even native speakers don't master them completely. However, the addition of -Innen has never struck me as particularly helpful, since I never could see the problem it was meant to solve. However, I also don't see the problem with the English convention of using the masculine pronoun as the default when gender is not specified, so I may be biased. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Solving problems that don't exist | Apr 1, 2014 |
I think it is a waste of time to think about this. When the German "Frauenbewegung" (feminist movement) was fighting for equal rights for women in their daily life, in relationships and work situations, it was doing a great job. Now they are trying to mess up the German language - I was never, ever in my life feeling discriminated or otherwise annoyed by any mentioning or not-mentioning of gender in my language. I don't care at all to be called a "Übersetzer" - what is wrong with that, anyway? ... See more I think it is a waste of time to think about this. When the German "Frauenbewegung" (feminist movement) was fighting for equal rights for women in their daily life, in relationships and work situations, it was doing a great job. Now they are trying to mess up the German language - I was never, ever in my life feeling discriminated or otherwise annoyed by any mentioning or not-mentioning of gender in my language. I don't care at all to be called a "Übersetzer" - what is wrong with that, anyway? Having to use the "Binnen-i" makes me cringe (like in "ÜbersetzerInnen" - which is supposed to include both genders). Spending tax payers' money on stuff like this is plain silly.
Well, to be fair it is necessary to mention their viewpoint: They argument that language forms thought, meaning that if we include the female gender it will lead to more women reaching positions that are now filled only by men. Although it seems that the Bundeskanzlerin didn't need any of this to reach her current position. ▲ Collapse
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 08:09
Spanish to English
+ ...
| It's not you, it's them | Apr 1, 2014 |
Eric Zink wrote:
However, I also don't see the problem with the English convention of using the masculine pronoun as the default when gender is not specified, so I may be biased.
Not at all, the boot is on the other foot. It's the people pursuing an ideologically-driven, non-linguistic politicised agenda that are biased on the issue, since they insist on conflating grammatical gender with perceived injustices in the "real world".
[Edited at 2014-04-01 09:13 GMT]
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The next step is rewriting literature into this "politically correct" language, then rewriting history, etc. They (whoever "they" are) are creating artificial problems so that they can pose as problem-solvers.
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 08:09
French to English
| language forms thought | Apr 1, 2014 |
Anna Sarah Krämer Fazendeiro wrote:
language forms thought
well doesn't it? at least to a certain extent?
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Texte Style wrote: Anna Sarah Krämer Fazendeiro wrote:
language forms thought well doesn't it? at least to a certain extent?
It does, to a certain extent. The question is whether that extent justifies butchering a whole language. I am sure there are less annoying ways to change people's minds.
[Edited at 2014-04-01 13:19 GMT]
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:09
French to English
+ ...
| "comfortable" language?!? | Apr 1, 2014 |
There have been various linguistic typologies proposed over the years, but "comfortable" languages vs "uncomfortable" languages isn't one of them as far as I'm aware...
To me this kind of thing does feel a bit like trying to invent a problem to fit a solution rather than the other way round. But I guess the extent of the "problem" depends partly on whether to German speakers, a form such as "Studenten" really feels overtly "masculine", or whether most speakers simply interpret it as... See more There have been various linguistic typologies proposed over the years, but "comfortable" languages vs "uncomfortable" languages isn't one of them as far as I'm aware...
To me this kind of thing does feel a bit like trying to invent a problem to fit a solution rather than the other way round. But I guess the extent of the "problem" depends partly on whether to German speakers, a form such as "Studenten" really feels overtly "masculine", or whether most speakers simply interpret it as gender-neutral without even thinking about it. And whichever the answer, I wonder if this tells us more about social attitude than it does about the language itself.
Just in case anybody had any doubt, in any case there's really little evidence that the entire German gender/article system/universe as we know it is going to break down over this. Where such a phenomenon has happened, such as the breakdown of the English Case system mentioned (or of course another well-studied instance is the breakdown of the Case system in Romance), it has really happened for different, across-the-board reasons, e.g. more general systemic changes that mean that certain endings are no longer phonetically "iconic" as marking a particular Case/gender etc(*).
When the author writes "Many linguists question whether...", this seems to be that tired old journalistic device of trying to pretend there's some kind of controversy when really there isn't. A more accurate statement would probably be: "99.99% of linguistics would think you were stark raving mad to suggest that..."
(*) So e.g. one more plausible factor that could affect the Case system in German, for example, would be the influx of foreign nouns with plurals in -s affecting how "iconic" -s is as a genitive marking.
[Edited at 2014-04-01 17:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Solving problems that don't exist | Apr 2, 2014 |
Anna Sarah Krämer Fazendeiro wrote:
Well, to be fair it is necessary to mention their viewpoint: They argument that language forms thought, meaning that if we include the female gender it will lead to more women reaching positions that are now filled only by men. Although it seems that the Bundeskanzlerin didn't need any of this to reach her current position.
Interesting view, but I like your conclusion. I don't think the two are related, sadly.
Some languages just do not lend themselves to gender neutrality and trying to force this on German will just add additional and unecessary complexity (and give some Germans something new to complain about).
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