| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Bilingual vs. monolingual dictionaries Thread poster: Phil Hand
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Rob Lunn 
Spain
Local time: 17:55
Spanish to English
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| Phil Hand
China
Local time: 23:55
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER | Can we specify? | Oct 10, 2014 |
Rob Lunn wrote:
I agree with the different needs idea...Either way, I think you get a pretty good feel for what you need and instinctively grab for (or browse to) one or the other depending on the situation.
I agree with that (good blog post, too). I wonder if we can make it more specific.
There are a few different need scenarios that I think we can identify.
1) You don't know what the source word means
2) You know approximately what the source word means, but need more detail
3) You know what the source word means but can't think of the right target word
Those three situations lead us to different references, I think. Perhaps, roughly: (1) bilingual dictionary; (2) monolingual dictionary; (3) thesaurus. Obviously that's a massive simplification, but is there a grain of truth in it?
Or is there a better way of breaking down a translator's difficulties?
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 17:55
Italian to English
In memoriam | Jogging your memory | Oct 10, 2014 |
As others have said, bilingual dictionaries can be useful memory-joggers, on a par with concordance searches, web searches and all the other little helpers that information technology has made available to us.
However, I also agree with Michael that over-using bilingual dictionaries can be detrimental to your translation skills, particularly when you are learning. "Dictionary digging" - twisting the source text to fit what your dictionary says - is a classic beginner's mistake, as ... See more As others have said, bilingual dictionaries can be useful memory-joggers, on a par with concordance searches, web searches and all the other little helpers that information technology has made available to us.
However, I also agree with Michael that over-using bilingual dictionaries can be detrimental to your translation skills, particularly when you are learning. "Dictionary digging" - twisting the source text to fit what your dictionary says - is a classic beginner's mistake, as well as an endless source of amusement for teachers  ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Same scenarios, different solutions | Oct 10, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
There are a few different need scenarios that I think we can identify.
1) You don't know what the source word means
2) You know approximately what the source word means, but need more detail
3) You know what the source word means but can't think of the right target word
Those three situations lead us to different references, I think. Perhaps, roughly: (1) bilingual dictionary; (2) monolingual dictionary; (3) thesaurus. Obviously that's a massive simplification, but is there a grain of truth in it?
Or is there a better way of breaking down a translator's difficulties?
I think that is a great summary of typical situations, but I disagree with your answers. It seems like a good basis for constructive disagreement:
(1) monolingual source reference material (I think this is very important: This [used in combination with the specific use/context source text] is the only way to really get a comprehensive and precise idea of the whole range of meanings of the source term.)
(2) monolingual source reference material (here we agree)
(3) among these three situations, this is the only one where I would use bilingual reference material (possibly in combination with a target thesaurus or target monolingual reference)
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Rob Lunn
Spain
Local time: 17:55
Spanish to English
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| First options | Oct 10, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
There are a few different need scenarios that I think we can identify.
1) You don't know what the source word means
2) You know approximately what the source word means, but need more detail
3) You know what the source word means but can't think of the right target word
Those three situations lead us to different references, I think. Perhaps, roughly: (1) bilingual dictionary; (2) monolingual dictionary; (3) thesaurus.
Yes, I think those situations are about right. And, for me at least, the resources also probably hold true a lot of the time, at least as my first option to get things going, although in situation 3 I'd normally go to the bilingual dictionary (as part of that memory jogging) before the thesaurus, which comes later if it all.
I think it's a case of an instinct you hone with experience. You learn where you need to go first to get you on the right track as fast as possible according to the situation, which doesn’t mean you only go there and that’s it --- you could and often do end up referring to more than one type of resource.
I understand and even second the wariness towards bilingual dictionaries (they have their limits), but I think it's more about being aware of the dangers and knowing how and when to use them.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 23:55
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER | Words and sentences | Oct 10, 2014 |
Giles Watson wrote: "Dictionary digging" - twisting the source text to fit what your dictionary says - is a classic beginner's mistake, as well as an endless source of amusement for teachers
Yes, that's very important. Often the theorists will say things like "we don't translate words, we translate texts," and I think that's right. But on the other hand, it seems like we often do, in practice, translate words. I've been thinking about how to square this circle, and my best idea at the moment is that translating words is one of the processes that we (often) go through on the way to a translation; but it should not be mistaken for translation itself.
I just realised that I'd forgotten Lincoln's very good point again: with technical terms, a good bilingual dictionary can be the fastest way to the right term (though checking against monolingual reference materials is always necessary).
This is all very much undecided in my mind at the moment, so all comments, disagreements and ideas are constructive. Thanks, all!
| | | | | Client often the best dictionary | Oct 10, 2014 |
I do a lot of fairly technical translations and I used to spend hours poring over dictionaries, references, etc. and asking kudoz questions. What I tend to do with difficult terms now is, after having checked all the obvious places, if I can't find a decent translation I'll ask the agency to put it to the end client. My experience is that they almost always know exactly what term is required and are more than happy to help get their translation right.
| | | | | No substitute for knowledge of the subject | Oct 10, 2014 |
A dictionary is no substitute for knowledge of the subject AND both languages.
But in my language pairs there are some very good bilingual dictionaries. I have been taught by the lexicographers, and of course, they advocated using monolingual background reading and specialist dictionaries to be sure of what it was all about.
The online versions are addictive!
However, like Lincoln Hui, I find that for technical terminology, a reliable bilingual dictionary i... See more
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:55
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
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| Very interesting. | Oct 10, 2014 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Luca Tutino wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
I cut up and scanned all of my dictionaries and search them using an indexing program (I currently still use RedTree's Wilbur). Wow! You literally cut up paper dictionaries and scanned them manually? I guess this means 8 hours work per average volume, scanning only, + recognition... I used a knife to cut the pages out, then used a paper cutter to cut the pages all the same size, and then I used a scanner with a document feeder. Then I threw the paper dictionaries in the trash. The most time-consuming task is making sure all the images are there (no skipped pages) and making sure their file names are in sequential order (for that, I used Excel and MS DOS). Then I OCR'ed them to plain text, with 1 image = 1 file (same file name). This allows me to see in the search results on what page an entry is, so that I can double-check the actual image file if I'm uncertain about OCR errors. For some dictionaries you have to use the filters in XnView to make them OCR-able (for example, if a dictionary uses tiny dots on its pages for colouration, the OCR program will not be able to distinguish the dots from the letters, so you have to use a smudge filter to turn the dots into smears, and then the OCR program will see the letters). I'm extremely glad that the most autoritative monolingual and bilingual general dictionaries in my language actually come on CD-ROM, because it would have taken ages to scan them (their paper versions use very large pages and ultra-thin paper). [Edited at 2014-10-09 19:51 GMT]
Hi Samuel,
Did you use the exact same scanner mentioned in your link? I'm considering embarking on a bit of a scan journey myself but am trying to ascertain whether it might not be better to have a professional service do it for me. It isn't cheap, but then again, it isn't that expensive. I'm basically trying to figure out how much time it would take me to do a fairly massive dictionary (approx. 700 pages). And possibly quite a few more.
Michael
| | | | | using bilingual material to find out what a source word means | Oct 13, 2014 |
I would say that it is always a very bad practice (which may or may not lead to bad results in a particular case, but will regularly lead to bad results if regularly used) to try to find out what a source word means via bilingual reference material. If languages (even technical jargon in different languages) were that similar and unambiguous, then no one would need us. I understand that a character-based language like Chinese is an entirely different situation (and I mean that sincerely, I am no... See more I would say that it is always a very bad practice (which may or may not lead to bad results in a particular case, but will regularly lead to bad results if regularly used) to try to find out what a source word means via bilingual reference material. If languages (even technical jargon in different languages) were that similar and unambiguous, then no one would need us. I understand that a character-based language like Chinese is an entirely different situation (and I mean that sincerely, I am not just trying to be polite), but I would avoid like the plague any translator who is working in a European language and whose source-language knowledge and "mental corpus" are weak enough that he or she finds a bilingual dictionary more helpful than the explanations in a source-language dictionary.
Again, I would suggest looking up ten words in your native-language dictionary of choice and then looking them up in your bilingual dictionary of choice and seeing how comprehensive and precise the given range of suggestions really is. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 17:55
French to English
| I read this three times, just couldn't believe my eyes... | Oct 13, 2014 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
I have found monolingual dictionaries all but useless when translating any specialist material. Knowing what a technical term means will not help you find the appropriate specific translation in the target language.
[Edited at 2014-10-09 12:21 GMT]
Are you serious?
I don't go in for heavily technical translations, but when I get a technical term I don't understand, I want to know what it means. Then I'll look for a translation, probably in a bilingual dictionary, then check the definition of the target language word in a monolingual dictionary.
How on earth can you translate without understanding what you're translating?
How can the result can be any better than machine translation if you don't understand the text you're translating?
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 23:55
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Are YOU serious? | Oct 13, 2014 |
Texte Style wrote: Lincoln Hui wrote:
I have found monolingual dictionaries all but useless when translating any specialist material. Knowing what a technical term means will not help you find the appropriate specific translation in the target language.
[Edited at 2014-10-09 12:21 GMT] Are you serious? I don't go in for heavily technical translations, but when I get a technical term I don't understand, I want to know what it means. Then I'll look for a translation, probably in a bilingual dictionary, then check the definition of the target language word in a monolingual dictionary. How on earth can you translate without understanding what you're translating? How can the result can be any better than machine translation if you don't understand the text you're translating?
If you are translating specialist material, it is assumed that you are already a specialist in the field and will not need a dictionary to understand the text.
If you can't understand what you're translating without the help of a dictionary, you shouldn't be translating it.
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 17:55
French to English
Lincoln Hui wrote:
If you are translating specialist material, it is assumed that you are already a specialist in the field and will not need a dictionary to understand the text.
If you can't understand what you're translating without the help of a dictionary, you shouldn't be translating it.
If you only translate material when you understand 100% of words, down to every last nuance, you're not on a learning curve, you'll be stultified, and you'll get left behind as the world moves on to new things.
What about neologisms?
What about words the client has spelled wrong?
What about texts that touch on more than one specialist field? (just remembering when I was a PM, handling files for a very complex lawsuit involving the aerospace industry, the client sent in some hard-core technical stuff: the technical translators all told me it was too legal, the legal translators told me it was too technical. Finally the client found a technical expert who agreed to help a legal translator)
What happens when new technology shakes up the industry you've been translating for?
What happens if a great client branches out into a new field?
If I had never taken on a translation outside my comfort zone I would never have made it as a translator. Spending a couple of days researching a whole world I never knew existed is part of what makes translation such an interesting job. I just spent a couple of days working on the description of an 18th-century fregate. I got the job because I am down as "the historical translator" in the agency's database. I had difficulty working out the names of the various sails and of course a technical translator specialising in boats would have had fewer problems with that section. However they may have found the main thrust of the text, a political analysis of the fregate's role in the US war of independence, rather tough going, whereas for me that part was plain sailing.
(pardon the pun)
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 23:55
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Exception vs rule | Oct 13, 2014 |
You are talking about the exception rather than the rule.
Even in the rare case of a particularly obscure word, the monolingual dictionary will bring you no closer to finding the specific translation.
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