| 话题中的页数: < [1 2 3 4] > | Is it justified to charge clients according to their geographic locations? 论题张贴者: wonita (X)
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Oleg Rudavin 
乌克兰
Local time: 16:30
正式会员 (自2003)
English英语译成Ukrainian乌克兰语
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| Freelancer vs. agency | Apr 19, 2009 |
Deviating a bit from the topic question, I'd like to comment on an intresting difference between two types of business - namely, freelancer and agency.
Both are for-profit companies. But translators sell their services while agencies resell them. Both target higher earnings, but the ways of achieving it are different in the "expense" part.
Translators have little room for cutting down their expenses (actually, the expenses directly related to translation... See more Deviating a bit from the topic question, I'd like to comment on an intresting difference between two types of business - namely, freelancer and agency.
Both are for-profit companies. But translators sell their services while agencies resell them. Both target higher earnings, but the ways of achieving it are different in the "expense" part.
Translators have little room for cutting down their expenses (actually, the expenses directly related to translation proper are close to zero if expressed in money and can only be measured in time; reducing time spent for translation would, in most cases, result in reduced output and hence reduced earnings.)
For agencies as resellers, there's always a temptation to reduce the apparently easily reduceable "expense" part (= rate offered to freelance translators) and thus increase their margin. Whether a particular agency decides for or against it depends on their business philosophy. Whether we as translators accept the rate or decline the peanut offer depends on our business philosophy.
Coming back to the original question, globalization mixed it all! I (based in Ukraine) once got a job from my client (agency) in Israel - proofreading a contract (translated in Canada) between the buyer in Kazakstan and seller in Italy for a lawyer in Germany. Try figure who's the client here and what country they are based!
Globalization offers opportunity both for translators and translation agencies. A few countries and geographic regions have already been mentioned. All I can say is that there are agencies in India paying $US 10 or Chinese agencies paying € 0.12, and back in 2002 I worked for a Russian agency paying € 0.07 - probably ten times more than the dominating local rate.
Geography is steadily losing its relevance in price formation. What is becoming more and more inportant is indeed everything Ralf listed - and a lot more.
One thing we should remember though is that iit's us translators doing the actual work; so we do have a 'voting right', and probably (or ideally) we should be the ones setting the price for each job, with agencies communicating it to the end clients.
Cheers,
Oleg ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Not stating the rate first??? | Apr 19, 2009 |
whither has fle wrote:
My problem is that I do not want to overquote, as I can see a future for myself in this agency! I have just completed a translation French into English for this agency although we had not fixed a price yet (Gulp!!). That was entirely my fault and I have sound reasons to trust these people..so this is not an issue. As I was hoping, I have now received another very nice manuscript (for proofreading)...the normal procedure being "quote first"...and I just cant make up my mind because I really do want this job.
You have sent them a very clear message, you have told them: "Hey guys, take advantage of me! do exploit me! I am naive and don't know how to run my translation business". That is what they are thinking right now. What you have done is unprofessional. Even if you translate for your mother, if she will pay you with cash, do state YOUR rate up front; period. What you are doing is crazy and suicidal from a business point of view. Because you are running a translation business, aren't you? if you are running a charity organization intended to help translation agencies, forget about what I've said.
whither has fle wrote:
Would it be unwise to suggest to the agency that they just tell me what they are willing to pay for this particular manuscript/proofread... and if its reasonable..given the potential...
It would be very unwise to do so, indeed, because you should never ask your clients how much they are willing to pay; you MUST tell your clients YOUR rate. When you go to the grocery, do they ask you what you are willing to pay for a kg of tomatoes??? Never forget this: you are running a business and you are the seller; you set the price and they either agree or refuse. If they refuse, there are many other clients out there.
whither has fle wrote:
I feel I am on the horns of a dilemma! I mean if I quote 0.08 and someone else quotes 0.07....
Yes, for sure! if you quote 0.08 someone will quote 0.07; if you quote 0.07 someone will quote 0.06; if you quote 0.06 someone will quote 0.05; if you quote 0.05 someone will quote 0.04; if you quote 0.04 someone will quote 0.03; if you quote 0.03 someone will quote 0.02; and there are people who quote even lower than 0.02. Is that the game you want to play??? in that case, don't waste your time and ask less than 0.02.
If you charge 0.XY it would be difficult for them to find a cheaper translator as good as you or better for that language pair and that specialization; that's the point. But don't forget there are clients who don't care about quality; they just want the lowest price. If you want to work with this kind of clients, go ahead and ask less than 0.02.
Please, do a favour to you and to the whole community of translators: stop translating for two or three months and do your homework: do learn abut how this business works and how freelancing does. You can start reading a book about it. I've read "How to Succeed as a Freelance Translator" by Corinne McKey, but there are other books and I don't know if it is the best. These forums are a good source of information too. Remember, you are not only a translator, you are also a freelancer, that is, you are a business person. If you don't feel comfortable with that or you are not willing to do your homework, the best for you would be to look for a job as an employee.
It might be I've been a little bit rude, I don't know; if that were the case, I beg your pardon.
¡Salud!
Ignacio Vicario Esteban
| | | | | full marks, Ignatio!! RNA Translator | Apr 19, 2009 |
Hello Ignatio,
You did indeed go overboard, completely!! But I have to forgive you because it turns out that you are perferctly right. I took the bull by the horns, so to speak, gave the agency a rate I am quite comfortable with and lo and behold...! They agreed, quite simply. The asked me to send the invoice by return and they would transfer the amount to my bank before the end of the week. They have also given me a further, very long, proofreading job, scientific research article.... See more Hello Ignatio,
You did indeed go overboard, completely!! But I have to forgive you because it turns out that you are perferctly right. I took the bull by the horns, so to speak, gave the agency a rate I am quite comfortable with and lo and behold...! They agreed, quite simply. The asked me to send the invoice by return and they would transfer the amount to my bank before the end of the week. They have also given me a further, very long, proofreading job, scientific research article...just what I love...and guess what...they accepted my rate for this too!
So, thank you for going into "volcanic" mode......perhaps the vibes hit France....in a positive way.
By the way, I used to do a lot of translation and proofreading, without ever having to quote, because it was all part of my job with a scientific journal. I was paid every three months for all the work I did. Nobody ever counted words...all that mattered was that the Publishing Editor would receive a perfect manuscript.Hence my dithering when it comes to quoting.
So, thanks again Ignatio.....I will keep your advice in mind...
Kind regards,
Joan. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
美国
Local time: 08:30
Greek希腊语译成English英语
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Taija said:
"I see no reason for a third-world discount"
Dear Taija,
We, in the "first world" exploit the naive third world workers by paying them 1 cent per word, and then we make a donation through various international organizations to pay for their other needs (becides rice and beans).
It's never going to change. Poor people are used to poverty and don't want to change it. Some other person said that we should adjust prices according... See more Taija said:
"I see no reason for a third-world discount"
Dear Taija,
We, in the "first world" exploit the naive third world workers by paying them 1 cent per word, and then we make a donation through various international organizations to pay for their other needs (becides rice and beans).
It's never going to change. Poor people are used to poverty and don't want to change it. Some other person said that we should adjust prices according to the "cost of living". Therefore, we are not professionals, we are just cheap workers trying to cover only our cost of living.
Now, if I live in New York but my daddy pays my rent and food and bills, then, how much is my cost of living? If my daddy pays for everything I spend in NY, should I lower my prices to zero?
Ah, wait... I got an idea:
Why don't we all DELETE the information "Country" from our profiles and see what happens? ▲ Collapse
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Taija Hyvönen
芬兰
Local time: 16:30
正式会员 (自2008)
English英语译成Finnish芬兰语
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| Clients and clients... | Apr 20, 2009 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
We, in the "first world" exploit the naive third world workers by paying them 1 cent per word, and then we make a donation through various international organizations to pay for their other needs (becides rice and beans).
If the direct Chinese client was a poor farmer living on two dollars a day, I would sure give them a third-world discount
But we are talking about agencies taking a hefty profit margin, which I am sure they are not donating to the poor, and their end clients are multinational corporations, car manufacturers etc. who are not actually on the brink of starvation either. Increasing profits for multi-millionaire corporations on my expense is NOT going to benefit those in need anyway.
So the exploitation argument really is not working here, and it has no effect whatsoever on me for personal reasons anyway.
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
美国
Local time: 08:30
Greek希腊语译成English英语
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I'm not arguing, I'm just being sarcastic. I agree with what you say... agencies charge
full price to the client, and the client doesn't know where the translators live.
| | | | Aniello Scognamiglio (X)
德国
Local time: 15:30
English英语译成German德语
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| Aniello Scognamiglio (X)
德国
Local time: 15:30
English英语译成German德语
+ ...
| Hm..., I do not agree... | Apr 20, 2009 |
Oleg Rudavin wrote:
Both are for-profit companies. But translators sell their services while agencies resell them. One thing we should remember though is that iit's us translators doing the actual work.
Hi Oleg,
I am a freelancer, but I do not agree with generalizing that agencies *re*sell their services. In some cases it might be true, but it is also true that many agencies run a blood and sweat business with their own translation staff doing the *actual* work. What you mean by "*actual* work? (translating only?). That is a bit narrow-minded because everything that contributes to generating (steady) revenue is *actual* work. Why do freelance translators choose to cooperate with agencies?
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Oleg Rudavin
乌克兰
Local time: 16:30
正式会员 (自2003)
English英语译成Ukrainian乌克兰语
+ ...
| Additional explanation | Apr 20, 2009 |
Thanks for commenting, italengger!
italengger wrote: Oleg Rudavin wrote:
Both are for-profit companies. But translators sell their services while agencies resell them. One thing we should remember though is that iit's us translators doing the actual work.
Hi Oleg, I am a freelancer, but I do not agree with generalizing that agencies *re*sell their services. In some cases it might be true, but it is also true that many agencies run a blood and sweat business with their own translation staff doing the *actual* work.
My comment was specifically for situations when agencies contacted freelancers offering them jobs at a presumably "unfair" rate. In this case, agencies do resell services - our, not their! (sometimes in one package together with theirs - DTP, proofreading, etc.) Sorry if it looked like generalizing; I didn't mean it and only tried to address one specific situation.
What you mean by "*actual* work? (translating only?). That is a bit narrow-minded because everything that contributes to generating (steady) revenue is *actual* work.
As for the 'actual' work, my analysis shows that 50% to 70% of translated texts (with some agencies, it's 100%) are delivered to the end clients as is, without any additional processing. And I don't believe that the KTA's (kitchen table agencies) offering their "services" at rates slightly lower than "real" agencies qualifies as a revenue-generating effort - not in my book.
Why do freelance translators choose to cooperate with agencies?
Very simple: because the translator - you, me, or anybody else - finds the terms acceptable.
| | | | | Yes, very unwise | Apr 20, 2009 |
whither has fle wrote:
Would it be unwise to suggest to the agency that they just tell me what they are willing to pay for this particular manuscript/proofread... and if its reasonable..given the potential...
Yes, very unwise. Decide your rates, and stick to them.
| | | | Lingua 5B
波斯尼亚黑塞哥维纳
Local time: 15:30
正式会员 (自2009)
English英语译成Croatian克罗地亚语
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| Negotiation vs context | Apr 20, 2009 |
While I agree that we need to have excellent negotiation skills, because we are also our own managers, I can't remember I actually ever significantly raised my price through " negotiation".
In the 94 % of cases, the client has a virtually fixed priced that they planned to pay ( for whatever reason), and they never change it, even after they waste both their and my time on extensive negotiation. They prefer to invest their energy in searching a cheaper translator rather than spendin... See more While I agree that we need to have excellent negotiation skills, because we are also our own managers, I can't remember I actually ever significantly raised my price through " negotiation".
In the 94 % of cases, the client has a virtually fixed priced that they planned to pay ( for whatever reason), and they never change it, even after they waste both their and my time on extensive negotiation. They prefer to invest their energy in searching a cheaper translator rather than spending time on negotiating with an expensive one.
[Edited at 2009-04-20 08:29 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | wonita (X)
中国大陆
Local time: 09:30
主题发起人 | God cherished 2 Cents from a widow | Apr 20, 2009 |
Taija Salo wrote:
Why oh WHY would it be MY responsibility to shoot myself in the foot business-wise to accommodate Chinese agencies' two-cent business practices? Anyone?
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Aniello Scognamiglio (X)
德国
Local time: 15:30
English英语译成German德语
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| Thanks for the additional information, Oleg. | Apr 20, 2009 |
Oleg Rudavin wrote:
My comment was specifically for situations when agencies contacted freelancers offering them jobs at a presumably "unfair" rate.
| | | | wonita (X)
中国大陆
Local time: 09:30
主题发起人
Lingua 5B wrote:
In the 94 % of cases, the client has a virtually fixed priced that they planned to pay ( for whatever reason), and they never change it, even after they waste both their and my time on extensive negotiation. They prefer to invest their energy in searching a cheaper translator rather than spending time on negotiating with an expensive one.
Whilst loathing the 5-cent jobs from affluent outsourcers, I tend to appreciate their “down-to-earth” approach.
No tattles, just say “Yes” or “No”.
| | | | | I know of the opposite, too | Apr 20, 2009 |
Bin Tiede wrote:
I know quite several countries in Asia, whose mechanical engineers, soft-ware developers, project managers, etc. are paid at European standard, whereas their translators earn far less than their European colleagues.
I have a Chinese agency among my clients, and they are quite happy paying standard North American rates to me. Their head office is in Beijing (and I typically get requests from them during the night). I guess they'd rather pay the standard North American rate than pay the supposed Chinese rate and get inferior quality (I don't think there are that many Chinese who speak French well enough to translate into it - there are those who live abroad, but they have a higher cost of living, too).
Of course, for language pairs involving Cantonese, for example, things may be different. My French translations aren't sold to Chinese companies by my client, but the ones involving Cantonese might be. In any case, jeans made in China and sold in Chinese shops here in Canada are much cheaper than jeans made in Canada - but they are also generally of a much worse quality. Jeans made in China and sold under a North American brand are just as expensive as jeans made in Canada, even though they are often of worse quality.
Someone mentioned earlier that Chinese companies getting third-world discounts abroad are flourishing specifically because of this. Well, in the meantime, I would love to be able to buy goods that were made over here, but can't - local businesses are dropping like flies and people are losing their jobs. I don't see why I would feed the neighbour when I can't properly feed myself...
I'm sticking by my rates no matter where the client is. Trust me, the client feels the same way, too.
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