| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | Mother tongue and translation Thread poster: aruna yallapragada
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Angela Arnone 
Local time: 07:23
Member (2004)
Italian to English
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... because I'm a long-standing Pythoneer myself.
If you'd gone on about Startrek or Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, I'd have squashed mercilessly....
Of course you are perfectly right about "cultural grip" and it's one reason I don't translate into Italian (for money).
I see the quality of what my reverse peers do and I just can't compete, so I leave them to it and try to concentrate on honing my native target skills. Difficult when you live abroad and are for... See more ... because I'm a long-standing Pythoneer myself.
If you'd gone on about Startrek or Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, I'd have squashed mercilessly....
Of course you are perfectly right about "cultural grip" and it's one reason I don't translate into Italian (for money).
I see the quality of what my reverse peers do and I just can't compete, so I leave them to it and try to concentrate on honing my native target skills. Difficult when you live abroad and are forced to watch Casualty on Sky to work out what the latest jargon is (well that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it).
Angela
RobinB wrote:
.... Last off-topic post, Angela. Promise. But it maybe goes to show that there's more to a native command of the language than just the linguistic element. You gotta have the culture, too. And not just the general, popular culture, but also the domain-specific culture.
.... Robin
[Edited at 2006-10-25 10:41] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 07:23
German to English
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| Mother tongue and translation | Oct 25, 2006 |
Ruxi wrote:
Another problem is to define mother tongue.
On the contrary, in the context of professional translation it's blindingly easy. Either you can write to an adequate standard in the target language, or you can't. The interminable discussions of the terms "mother tongue" or "native language" are just a smoke-screen.
Marc
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 01:23
Spanish to English
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| In military circles ... | Oct 25, 2006 |
... they say: "Rules are for the guidance of sergeant-majors - and the strictest obeyance of privates".
Others say: "Rules are there to be broken".
What does all this suggest?
- That experienced people are allowed to interpret rules as guidance.
- That rules are not unbreakable - although we should not extrapolate that to infer that they should be totally ignored.
Above all rules serve as a reference in situations where a "private"... See more ... they say: "Rules are for the guidance of sergeant-majors - and the strictest obeyance of privates".
Others say: "Rules are there to be broken".
What does all this suggest?
- That experienced people are allowed to interpret rules as guidance.
- That rules are not unbreakable - although we should not extrapolate that to infer that they should be totally ignored.
Above all rules serve as a reference in situations where a "private" is doing something silly or dangerous. They serve to indicate the point at which the erring private got too big for his boots; the point where laudable enterprise turns into commercial folly, the point where "I don't wanna!" meets "You will do as I say!". That is their primary function in our work, when playing football, when Mummy sends us to climb the big wooden mountain way past bed-time ... and of course here on Proz.com .
From my own observations in the past 35 years of professional life (and the same was true in the preceding, so-called "formative years"), it is quite acceptable for "privates" to test the rules with a view to determining their relevance in one's own circumstances, or even to adjust them if found to be wanting. And looking around me now, I see that of the many people I have had the pleasure (or otherwise) to meet over the years, those who have done "best" in life - to the extent that they are now rule-makers in their respective fields - are those who always fully understood the role of rules in society and the benefits of testing them regularly, rigorously - and above all, respectfully.
So, my advice to Yaruna is this: If you want to make a reasonable living from translation, and if you want to win the respect of your peers and your clients, you should feel free to push the rules as far as you dare in any given circumstances. And rest assured that although some other people in this business might complain that you're treading on their toes you will not get court-marshalled for it.
MediaMatrix
[Edited at 2006-10-25 12:30]
[Edited at 2006-10-25 14:38] ▲ Collapse
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 00:23
German to English
| Define "adequate" | Oct 25, 2006 |
MarcPrior wrote: On the contrary, in the context of professional translation it's blindingly easy. Either you can write to an adequate standard in the target language, or you can't.
Pretty please.
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Marc P (X)
Local time: 07:23
German to English
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| "Mother tongue and translation" | Oct 25, 2006 |
RobinB wrote:
Define "adequate"
I suggest that the customer should define what is adequate.
This is precisely what happens in the real world. The translation market is highly unregulated and there are generally no formal criteria for target-language writing ability which obstruct suppliers' access to it. Precisely because the market is so unregulated, customers are free to formulate criteria of their own, and suppliers are free to propose and promote certain criteria. That includes the qualification of "native speaker".
The "native speaker" qualification is a very crude measure of target-language writing skill, for reasons that have been discussed here ad nauseam, but only the most ignorant of customers see no need whatsoever to consider this aspect when selecting a supplier. Astute suppliers, natives and non-natives alike, seek to refine the concept of "native speaker" and to shift the emphasis from an arbitrary linguistic definition to a measure of competence. Abolishing the criterion outright, without replacement, is a lost cause.
Marc
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 00:23
German to English
MarcPrior wrote: I suggest that the customer should define what is adequate.
Sorry Marc, that's a cop-out. It also used to be the line taken in one of the older pre-IS0 9000 standards (can't remember which one off-hand), but I really don't think that this "customer knows best" excuse has any further validity.
What if the customer either doesn't know what is adequate, or isn't in a position to define and/or assess what is adequate? This is surely the case in the majority of translations, because the customer simply doesn't have the skills to assess whether a translation is "adequate"or not. That's why they come to translators in the first place, right?
This is precisely what happens in the real world.
We evidently live in different real worlds. Customers rely on our translations to be right because they don't know one way or the other. If we make a mistake, probably the first the customer will know of it is a regulator breathing down their necks. Or a lawsuit. And as we are legally liable for ensuring that our translations contain no errors or omissions, we have to ensure that our own definition and application of "adequacy" meets, or better exceeds, the liability test.
The "native speaker" qualification is a very crude measure of target-language writing skill
It's no cruder that "subject-area knowledge", is it? I'll repeat what I've said earlier: for translation purposes, a "native writer" must be in the top 2-3% of their language community in terms of written command of that language. And if somebody who isn't formally classed as a native speaker can produce written translations that are the equivalent to those of a top 2-3% "native writer", then to all intents and purposes they, too, are "native" or "native-equivalent". And if they can't, they aren't.
Astute suppliers, natives and non-natives alike, seek to refine the concept of "native speaker" and to shift the emphasis from an arbitrary linguistic definition to a measure of competence.
See above.
Robin
[Edited at 2006-10-25 15:17]
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 07:23
German to English
+ ...
| Short answer to Robin | Oct 25, 2006 |
You are missing my point, namely: this is not a linguistic issue, but a marketing one. What prompted this thread is that some customers insist on their suppliers being "native speakers", and that this excludes other suppliers who may (or may not, as the case may be) actually be better translators.
In a free market, native speakers are entitled to advertise the fact and use it as a marketing instrument, and suppliers are entitled to use it as a selection criterion. That is what I mea... See more You are missing my point, namely: this is not a linguistic issue, but a marketing one. What prompted this thread is that some customers insist on their suppliers being "native speakers", and that this excludes other suppliers who may (or may not, as the case may be) actually be better translators.
In a free market, native speakers are entitled to advertise the fact and use it as a marketing instrument, and suppliers are entitled to use it as a selection criterion. That is what I meant by the customer defining what is adequate. Of course customers aren't necessarily in a position to assess the various aspects of translation skill, but they are free to consider the various claims of competence made by suppliers, be they the "native-speaker" characteristic, membership of a professional body, number of KudoZ points, possession of a translation qualification, lack of a translation qualification, or whatever.
Marc ▲ Collapse
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