| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Suggestions: minimum rate, no multiple profiles 投稿者: A Hayes (X)
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Dyran Altenburg (X) 
米国
Local time: 08:19
英語 から スペイン語
+ ...
| With a ribbon | Sep 8, 2006 |
Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:
On the other hand, I also understand Ralf's point that being a "voluntary", rather than a "paid" duty, it gives him all the freedom in the world to voice his dissent whenever he wishes to do so.
That might work just fine, except there's no real accountability.
Whenever the moderator role gets under fire, the usual answer is "they can't be here all the time... they have their own business and family to attend to... they do this for free, as a service to the community... etc."
Well, that's just bogus. When someone accepts to be a moderator, they should be willing to do a good job, regardless. Otherwise, the message that comes across is "Look, I'm doing this out of the goodness of my heart. Now, stop whining and be thankful there's someone to deal with you at all".
It seems to me that, in the long run, this attitude of trying to be a "company" and a "community", as well as a site for "professionals" and for "everybody" at the same time will produce more dissatisfaction and problems, than revenues and happy customers.
Indeed. The sheep's clothing is starting to rip at the seams and, wait a minute... is that a tuft of dark grey hair and a glimpse of a fang showing in there?
--
Dyran
(hoping for some real communication instead of staff members coming down on folks like a ton of bricks at the first mention of dissent)
| | | | Rosa Maria Duenas Rios (X)
Local time: 08:19
| Of course there will always be low-paid jobs and people who accept them... | Sep 8, 2006 |
Jabberwock wrote:
Remember, there will always be low-paid jobs. This is because there are clients who are not seeking the best quality, but the what-we-can-afford quality. And there will always be translators who will accept their terms, for a variety of reasons...
... And I do not believe that the changes we are suggesting aim to end with this problem in the world, or even in the site.
What I am referring to is improving the quality of the site; truly making it a venue for professionals, not for just anyone who happens to come across it, or is in need of translating a few songs, hopefully for free.
To me, the question is: Do you want to belong to a site where you can find true professionals or to one where you can find translations for cheap? Do you want to belong to a site that really promotes our profession or to one that promotes price dumping and contributes to the degradation of our market?
I wish any changes implemented in Proz.com could take into consideration the two questions above.
| | | | | Usual answer? | Sep 8, 2006 |
Dyran,
I take exception to your generalisation:
Whenever the moderator role gets under fire, the usual answer is "they can't be here all the time... they have their own business and family to attend to... they do this for free, as a service to the community... etc."
Many active moderators spent at least as much time on the site as paid staff members. The difference is availability: as a volunteer, you simply cannot guarantee you're there precisely the moment someone wants you to.
The way you've portrayed it, one might think that moderators generally use the nature of their role as volunteers as an excuse against criticism regarding their conduct. This is a generalisation which I find unfair and untrue.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | | Moderators do a great job | Sep 8, 2006 |
Dyran Altenburg wrote: Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:
On the other hand, I also understand Ralf's point that being a "voluntary", rather than a "paid" duty, it gives him all the freedom in the world to voice his dissent whenever he wishes to do so. That might work just fine, except there's no real accountability. Whenever the moderator role gets under fire, the usual answer is "they can't be here all the time... they have their own business and family to attend to... they do this for free, as a service to the community... etc." Well, that's just bogus. When someone accepts to be a moderator, they should be willing to do a good job, regardless. Otherwise, the message that comes across is "Look, I'm doing this out of the goodness of my heart. Now, stop whining and be thankful there's someone to deal with you at all".
ProZ.com's moderators do a great job for the community, and many of them dedicate huge efforts to their moderation duties.
The condition of volunteers may be used to explain some delay in taking care of some issues (I mean we don't expect moderators to be on duty 24/7) but then their actions are generally very responsible and coherent. And if you disagree with a moderator's action you can request support from staff.
It seems to me that, in the long run, this attitude of trying to be a "company" and a "community", as well as a site for "professionals" and for "everybody" at the same time will produce more dissatisfaction and problems, than revenues and happy customers. Indeed. The sheep's clothing is starting to rip at the seams and, wait a minute... is that a tuft of dark grey hair and a glimpse of a fang showing in there?
I believe that the ProZ.com can be both a company AND a community. In fact it has been both for seven years so far.
I believe the sheep/wolf analogy is not reasonable here, probably because I don't see translators as sheep. Members and also other users are at the focus of ProZ.com's mission even if we are a company.
Enrique
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Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:
[ Do you want to belong to a site where you can find true professionals or to one where you can find translations for cheap?
Do you want to belong to a site that really promotes our profession or to one that promotes price dumping and contributes to the degradation of our market?
This two questions in the "23-question survey + 4 comments box"
Regards
And for the comments coming from Pole, Lettland and so (I mean languages spoken in just a country), I think you can not understand the situation of languages pair like EN-ES.
We are a lot of countries with different life standards
the job section can be a weapon if it will not controlled.
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-08 21:03]
| | | | Lucica Abil (X)
ルーマニア
Local time: 15:19
イタリア語 から ルーマニア語
| That is the Question | Sep 8, 2006 |
Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:
To me, the question is: Do you want to belong to a site where you can find true professionals or to one where you can find translations for cheap? Do you want to belong to a site that really promotes our profession or to one that promotes price dumping and contributes to the degradation of our market?
to me, too! And the answer is... obvious.
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please let me advise you that (regretfully) neither Latvia or Poland are countries of highest life standards imaginable. So we too fare only as we can.
As to the minimum rate on job postings being imposed- surely I too would like to see it, however, that is impossible to implement going by the US anti-trust Laws (and by also Latvian and EU ones)- and I believe most of other countries also have Laws prohibiting price fixing. I'm afraid that in order to be able to set minimum prices, ... See more please let me advise you that (regretfully) neither Latvia or Poland are countries of highest life standards imaginable. So we too fare only as we can.
As to the minimum rate on job postings being imposed- surely I too would like to see it, however, that is impossible to implement going by the US anti-trust Laws (and by also Latvian and EU ones)- and I believe most of other countries also have Laws prohibiting price fixing. I'm afraid that in order to be able to set minimum prices, ProZ.com would have to be registered as a legal entity in Antarctica...
Uldis
Fernando Toledo wrote:
And for the comments coming from Pole, Lettland and so (I mean languages spoken in just a country), I think you can not understand the situation of languages pair like EN-ES.
We are a lot of countries with different life standards
the job section can be a weapon if it will not controlled.
▲ Collapse
| | | | | Rates and other things | Sep 8, 2006 |
To Dyran: if rates are not given upfront, then even if I send my rates right away, it may take considerable time and effort to extract the rates the agency is willing to pay - the answer to my rates being "this is too high for us... would you reconsider?" and further haggling is not that rare. Besides I cannot imagine that I answer a bid and include only my rates, without giving info on who I really am and why I am best for the job. Answering "My rate is so and so, if you accept it, repl... See more To Dyran: if rates are not given upfront, then even if I send my rates right away, it may take considerable time and effort to extract the rates the agency is willing to pay - the answer to my rates being "this is too high for us... would you reconsider?" and further haggling is not that rare. Besides I cannot imagine that I answer a bid and include only my rates, without giving info on who I really am and why I am best for the job. Answering "My rate is so and so, if you accept it, reply for more info" instead of a carefully prepared answer to a bid might cost me the job - I am not really willing to take that risk.
With rates given I would not even bother to read the rest of the job offer, and with a "dashboard" filter I would not even know they are there - I would answer only those jobs which really are interesting to me. For me that is worth a lot.
To Rosa and A Hayes: I understand your point of view and naturally I would want ProZ to be an even better marketing tool. However, I fail to see how introducing minimal rates or omitting rates altogether will bring that improvement. I will support either of those options, if I see strong arguments for that, which for now I do not.
With minimal rates or without the rates not much would change. There would be exactly the same jobs, answered by the very same people, only this time those who are not really interested would have to post unnecessary bids (as they would have no way to discriminate those jobs). In fact, without rates to be seen, it might even attract those who offer even lower pay, as they would be not shamed by any comparison and their offers would be no different than the jobs from the well-paying clients.
The only difference would be if there were minimal rates and the rates were forced (although that would be very easy to circumvent). There would be less jobs, probably. However, the translators would be the same, "true professionals" and "fake professionals" side by side, as none of those changes would make actually make the latter to leave ProZ.
This is how I see it. I would be grateful if you could clarify how those suggestions would practically benefit ProZ.
[Edited at 2006-09-08 21:58] ▲ Collapse
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Atenea Acevedo (X)
Local time: 06:19
英語 から スペイン語
+ ...
| To bid or not to bid | Sep 8, 2006 |
We were lectured in the Spanish forum on not to use the word "bid" because the jobs feature at ProZ.com is not about bidding. What word should we all be using, in any language? As rightfully noted by another member, the word is very much in use among members and users.
Atenea
| | | | | IMHO, this is linguistc nicety, | Sep 8, 2006 |
being non English speaker, I would translate Latvian term into English as "submitting your application for a job". But I don't think that changes anything, bid is a bid, however you call it. And all our applications for particular jobs are BIDS, if not, what are they?
Uldis
Atenea Acevedo wrote:
We were lectured in the Spanish forum on not to use the word "bid" because the jobs feature at ProZ.com is not about bidding. What word should we all be using, in any language? As rightfully noted by another member, the word is very much in use among members and users.
Atenea
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X)
米国
Local time: 08:19
英語 から スペイン語
+ ...
| Name the price | Sep 8, 2006 |
Uldis Liepkalns wrote:
being non English speaker, I would translate Latvian term into English as "submitting your application for a job". But I don't think that changes anything, bid is a bid, however you call it. And all our applications for particular jobs are BIDS, if not, what are they?
Quotes.
AFAIK, there's no bidding in ProZ. What you guys do is quote.
--
Dyran
(who doesn't haggle)
[Edited at 2006-09-09 00:19]
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but in Latvian it cannot be said in one word and meanings are very similar.
And the word "bid" also in English doesn't mean offering the lowest price, but the best offer to choose from.
The choice is up to the outsourcer.
Uldis
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| Pop-up Warnings | Sep 8, 2006 |
Translators should set the price - not the outsourcer.
However, I can see Jabberwock's point. Right now, I currently quote for 0 jobs on ProZ as none of the rates are acceptable to me. If no rates were given, I would probably quote on several jobs. My rate would be in the quote and if too high, I would not receive a response, but this only results in unneccesary quoting for me and more useless quotes for the outsourcer. Besides, no matter what system is implemented, someone will fin... See more Translators should set the price - not the outsourcer.
However, I can see Jabberwock's point. Right now, I currently quote for 0 jobs on ProZ as none of the rates are acceptable to me. If no rates were given, I would probably quote on several jobs. My rate would be in the quote and if too high, I would not receive a response, but this only results in unneccesary quoting for me and more useless quotes for the outsourcer. Besides, no matter what system is implemented, someone will find a way to work around it.
It has been said that the laws of the US (and other countries) prohibit the establishment of a minimum rate and that is why I suggested calculating the average rate charged by ProZ users and members in each language pair.
When posting a job, outsourcers would receive a pop-up message stating:
"WARNING. The rate you are offering for Hungarian to English translation is .04 below the average of .xx for H>E translators on Proz. As a result, this may limit the number of quotes you receive...."
Likewise, translators responding to such jobs would receive a pop-up message stating:
"WARNING. The rate you are quoting for Hungarian to English transation is .04 below the average of .xx for H>E translators on ProZ in [insert translator's country of residence]."
This solution removes the problem of the perception of ProZ as a "dumping ground" for cheap projects, helps to prevent new translators from being unknowingly taken advantage of, and reinforces my initial statement that translators set their own rate - not the outsourcers. Site averages would increase as translators get work at higher rates and then increase their own rates.
Of course this presupposes that the average rates here are not .02 or .03 a word.
[Edited at 2006-09-08 23:10] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X)
米国
Local time: 08:19
英語 から スペイン語
+ ...
| Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes | Sep 8, 2006 |
Jabberwock wrote:
To Dyran: if rates are not given upfront, then even if I send my rates right away, it may take considerable time and effort to extract the rates the agency is willing to pay - the answer to my rates being "this is too high for us... would you reconsider?" and further haggling is not that rare.
Maybe it's a cultural thing. Or a specific market thing.
More often than not, when I shop around for this or that service, I get a rate and a list of the things included in that rate. At least in my neck of the woods, there's no haggling. Quality has a price, and people tend to expect that.
Now, in the case of translation, we seem to have the group that strives for quality at a premium price; the group that strives to get a job, no matter what, at any price; and everybody else in the middle shoving this way and that.
With so many different (and seemingly opposite) interests and goals, can we really be expected to be happy with the status quo, "get along", and "play nice"?
Besides I cannot imagine that I answer a bid and include only my rates, without giving info on who I really am and why I am best for the job. Answering "My rate is so and so, if you accept it, reply for more info" instead of a carefully prepared answer to a bid might cost me the job - I am not really willing to take that risk.
I did say I send all relevant information along with my rates, although it doesn't take me more than a couple of paragraphs. It does seem, though, that we have different expectations (and different sales strategies) regarding potential clients/jobs.
With rates given I would not even bother to read the rest of the job offer, and with a "dashboard" filter I would not even know they are there - I would answer only those jobs which really are interesting to me. For me that is worth a lot.
Let me give you an example of a setup that works just fine without mentioning any rates: ATA.
When potential clients contact me through ATA's website, I *know* that price is not going to be an issue. That tells me that ATA is perceived as a place where high-end translators can be found.
Well, why not do the same here? (i.e. get rid of the "cheap place" image)
--
Dyran
| | | | Rosa Maria Duenas Rios (X)
Local time: 08:19
| Dyran was faster than me... | Sep 8, 2006 |
Dyran Altenburg wrote:
Let me give you an example of a setup that works just fine without mentioning any rates: ATA.
... I was going to offer the same example, and there is not only ATA, but other professional associations.
Tampa translator's seems to be a good alternative too.
I am sure there are many other ways to improve the image of the site, at least regarding the jobs section.
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