| გვერდების რაოდენობა თემაში: [1 2] > | The use of non-English words (like "en masse") თემის ავტორი: Ali Alsaqqa
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Ali Alsaqqa 
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 18:23
ინგლისური -> არაბული
Hi,
I was reading a technology blog article where I encountered this sentence:
"IT administrators can deploy Chrome Web Store apps to users en masse by setting up rganizational policies for Chrome."
"en masse" is originally a French word, it means "in a single body or group" (Wikipedia).
My questions: Is the use of such words considered formal or informal?
I know that many everyday English words are derived from other languages (e... See more Hi,
I was reading a technology blog article where I encountered this sentence:
"IT administrators can deploy Chrome Web Store apps to users en masse by setting up rganizational policies for Chrome."
"en masse" is originally a French word, it means "in a single body or group" (Wikipedia).
My questions: Is the use of such words considered formal or informal?
I know that many everyday English words are derived from other languages (e.g. Latin) but this one clearly appears not English-like (because of the term "en"), so I thought this might make things different...
[Edited at 2011-08-31 21:39 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | TargamaT team
საფრანგეთი
Local time: 00:23
წევრი (2010)
ინგლისური -> არაბული
+ ...
| Tina Vonhof (X)
კანადა
Local time: 16:23
ჰოლანდიური -> ინგლისური
+ ...
En masse is used in fairly formal, often written, language and most likely by relatively well-educated people who know what it means and when to use it. It is not a word that is used a lot in everyday spoken language.
Examples: notify users en masse, the directors resigned en masse, the people protested en masse, etc.
| | | | Ali Alsaqqa
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 18:23
ინგლისური -> არაბული
თემის ავტორი | All of them? | Aug 31, 2011 |
Thanks Dr. Oussama, I guess this includes all such non-English words, not just "en messe", right ?
(Of course, I could consult the dictionary for any specific word)
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Ali Alsaqqa
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 18:23
ინგლისური -> არაბული
თემის ავტორი | True, and... | Aug 31, 2011 |
Tina Vonhof wrote:
En masse is used in fairly formal, often written, language and most likely by relatively well-educated people who know what it means and when to use it. It is not a word that is used a lot in everyday spoken language.
Examples: notify users en masse, the directors resigned en masse, the people protested en masse, etc.
And the evidence is that firefox's dictionary (which is not a comprehensive one) does not recognize it, which means it is "too formal."
Thanks you!
[Edited at 2011-08-31 22:11 GMT]
| | | | Phil Hand
ჩინეთი
Local time: 07:23
ჩინური -> ინგლისური
| Foreign words in English | Sep 1, 2011 |
I was given a tip which I try to follow to this day: don't use foreign words or phrases (like en masse, en route, hacienda, veldt, etc. etc.) in translations. In my pair, particularly, many translation users are not English natives. They won't necessarily know these (often) slightly specialised terms. So I would say you need to be able to recognise and understand commonly-used foreign phrases, but there's no need to be able to use them yourself.
| | | | Lingua 5B
ბოსნია და ჰერცოგოვინა
Local time: 00:23
წევრი (2009)
ინგლისური -> ხორვატული
+ ...
Copywriters will use them to "decorate" a copy, to avoid repetition, or to sound more formal. Good point about not using them in translations, though, which Phil just said.
On the other hand, in the today's world of the web, repetitions are encouraged for SEO purposes. Texts with a large number of repetitions used to be considered very poor, from stylistic point of view.
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Tina Vonhof wrote:
En masse is used in fairly formal, often written, language and most likely by relatively well-educated people who know what it means and when to use it. It is not a word that is used a lot in everyday spoken language.
As a native English speaker, I would disagree with that assertion.
En masse, en route etc. are used very much in general, including in colloquial speach.
Words like rendevous are a little less common because the verb "meet" is shorter and identical in perceived meaning.
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| Par excellence ... | Sep 1, 2011 |
An apposite topic for me.
I was recently confronted by both "volte face" and "par excellence" and thought long and hard about whether to try translating them into English or to leave them in French as expressions in common use in the UK. I suppose such phrases were adopted into English because there didn't seem to be a way of expressing the meaning quite as precisely as the original French ... maybe.
In the end I decided to leave them in French because the text was an address to a c... See more An apposite topic for me.
I was recently confronted by both "volte face" and "par excellence" and thought long and hard about whether to try translating them into English or to leave them in French as expressions in common use in the UK. I suppose such phrases were adopted into English because there didn't seem to be a way of expressing the meaning quite as precisely as the original French ... maybe.
In the end I decided to leave them in French because the text was an address to a conference of experts and I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the target audience would be as familiar with those originally French expressions as I am. Should I have translated them? (I've received no objection from the client - so far).
Jenny (aka Puzzled of Penzance). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
ჩინეთი
Local time: 07:23
ჩინური -> ინგლისური
| English versions | Sep 1, 2011 |
I reckon you can put those into English: u-turn and epitome; about face and the very model of; 180 degree turn and apotheosis; reversed herself and a perfect example of;...
And for my pair I would put them into English. But it sounds like you considered your audience, made an informed decision - and apparently made the right decision. That's pretty good practice, too!
| | | | Ty Kendall
გაერთიანებული სამეფო
Local time: 23:23
ივრითი -> ინგლისური
I agree with Phil that considerations of audience, genre and register etc should play a part when considering whether to translate these words and phrases or not.
I disagree that all of them are highly formal, some of the more ubiquitous examples do find their way into colloquial usage...
"en route" for example, can be heard as well as read. However, many English (less educated) English people think they are saying "ON route". So this could explain the increased frequen... See more I agree with Phil that considerations of audience, genre and register etc should play a part when considering whether to translate these words and phrases or not.
I disagree that all of them are highly formal, some of the more ubiquitous examples do find their way into colloquial usage...
"en route" for example, can be heard as well as read. However, many English (less educated) English people think they are saying "ON route". So this could explain the increased frequency of this phrase - people don't realise they are speaking French!
In addition, if you litter your spoken language with French or Latin phrases you just sound pretentious at best and ridiculous at worst.
So this is a good argument for keeping them confined to more formal, written English.
Although I am a bit of a purist and I loved Phil's English alternatives. I do not see the point of using foreign terms when English ones DO exist.
In translation, the propositional meaning of these words/phrases is (usually) identical to their English counterparts, the only differences might be in their expressive, pre-suppositional and evoked meanings. Therefore, translating them could be based on considerations of maintaining expressive or evoked meanings. (and taking into account other constraints etc). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sonia Hill
გაერთიანებული სამეფო
Local time: 23:23
იტალიური -> ინგლისური
| In common use | Sep 1, 2011 |
I am happy to use occasional foreign expressions such as "en masse", "en route", "par excellence" etc. if I feel they're in common use in everyday English. I hear people using these expressions all the time (particularly "en route"), even in informal speech. They also appear regularly in newspaper articles, etc. in the UK. Many words of this type are included in the Oxford English Dictionary, so I feel they have been fully absorbed into the English language.
Obviously, in the case o... See more I am happy to use occasional foreign expressions such as "en masse", "en route", "par excellence" etc. if I feel they're in common use in everyday English. I hear people using these expressions all the time (particularly "en route"), even in informal speech. They also appear regularly in newspaper articles, etc. in the UK. Many words of this type are included in the Oxford English Dictionary, so I feel they have been fully absorbed into the English language.
Obviously, in the case of rather more obscure expressions, which aren't in common use, I will think of an alternative version in English.
As in all translations, the important thing is to consider the readership of the text and make an informed decision on what type of language to use.
[Edited at 2011-09-01 10:46 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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neilmac
ესპანეთი
Local time: 00:23
ესპანური -> ინგლისური
+ ...
| Common or jardin | Sep 1, 2011 |
Sonia Atkinson wrote:
I am happy to use occasional foreign expressions such as "en masse"... They also appear regularly in newspaper articles, etc. in the UK. Many words of this type are included in the Oxford English Dictionary, so I feel they have been fully absorbed into the English language.
As in all translations, the important thing is to consider the readership of the text and make an informed decision on what type of language to use.
[Edited at 2011-09-01 10:46 GMT]
I heartily agree. When English struggles to express something, we have a saying "the french have a word for it". As most of our culture, from cooked meals and cutlery to the legal system, comes from French, why should we baulk at things like en route/ en masse/ je ne sais quoi... etc. We can always use italics if need be.
The current widely trumpeted dislike of all thing French (e.g: "freedom fries" and the perpetration of the "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" stereotype) is mainly a US phenomenon, or anglocentric xenophobia. A a Scot and native English speaker, I can assure you that the Auld Alliance is still alive and well north of the border.
[Edited at 2011-09-01 11:21 GMT]
| | | | neilmac
ესპანეთი
Local time: 00:23
ესპანური -> ინგლისური
+ ...
| Plus ca change | Sep 1, 2011 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
Texts with a large number of repetitions used to be considered very poor, from stylistic point of view.
I'm afraid I must take issue with "used to be". Mind-numbing repetition still stultifies to this day.
When translating from Spanish, their constant repetition and seemingly endless sentences and haphazard punctuation, apparently less frowned upon there, often drive me up the wall, and I know that many colleagues agree.
| | | | neilmac
ესპანეთი
Local time: 00:23
ესპანური -> ინგლისური
+ ...
| Creme de la creme | Sep 1, 2011 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
In addition, if you litter your spoken language with French or Latin phrases you just sound pretentious at best and ridiculous at worst.
Yes, my friends and I do it quite often, tongue in cheek, although some of us more than others. At least we are aware of what we are doing...
To misquote The Simpsons, I think a bit of French embiggens the lingo.
[Edited at 2011-09-01 11:23 GMT]
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