| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12] | Should the "P" symbol be for internal eyes only? Thread poster: Paul Cohen
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| My hands are tied | Mar 17, 2009 |
Nikki Graham wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
I think the point was to illustrate a failure in the system, which has failed to detect an individual who has subsequently failed to deliver on time. If this is the first time said translator has failed (and I'm still waiting for exact details from Nicole about this alleged failure), how was the system supposed to recognise this? And, consequently, how has the system failed (if this is the first instance)?
Indeed, I agree entirely. But forum rules prevent me from saying what I wanted to say, and you have to read between the lines!
(Nothing sinister, just the rule about speculating about other people's thought processes )
Let's just say that I share what I think is your view, about how it is difficult for any system to predict future events if there is no clue in past performance. Just like a driving test fails to predict who will have accidents.
Again, rather than picking away at an individual case, perhaps it would be more constructive to discuss in general what the PRO scheme plans to do if and when "P" people fail to live up to the standard.
| | | | Nikki Graham 
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:49
Spanish to English
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Again, rather than picking away at an individual case, perhaps it would be more constructive to discuss in general what the PRO scheme plans to do if and when "P" people fail to live up to the standard.
if they introduce a big minus black P badge and I get one, then I'm out of here (unless, of course, outsourcers still have no clue what they mean)!
P.S. Just in case, the above was a joke! (at least, I hope it was...)
On a more serious note, I assume they would just be chucked out of the programme, perhaps for a year (?) or so.
| | | | | Let's wrap up this thread | Mar 17, 2009 |
Hi folks,
I'll ask you all to wrap up this thread, maybe making a final post if you like. As I promised, the information available on the program in the descriptive pages will be expanded upon. There will also no doubt be future discussions of this type.
Thanks again for all of the input.
| | | | | My final thoughts | Mar 17, 2009 |
1) I find the PRO certification initiative, even if only **based** (inspired) on the EN 15038 standard (which establishes in a very practical way a series of industry guidelines for both freelance professionals and LSPs in general), a very positive, useful idea to verify a series of minimum requirements of website members.
2) All processes required for approval and "maintenance" of the PRO certification should be 100% transparent, strict and reliable. As Proz.com cannot act as a "p... See more 1) I find the PRO certification initiative, even if only **based** (inspired) on the EN 15038 standard (which establishes in a very practical way a series of industry guidelines for both freelance professionals and LSPs in general), a very positive, useful idea to verify a series of minimum requirements of website members.
2) All processes required for approval and "maintenance" of the PRO certification should be 100% transparent, strict and reliable. As Proz.com cannot act as a "police" of PRO certification holders, only ongoing peer support or interaction with the Proz.com staff can help Proz.com be aware of any abuses.
3) It would be excellent for the PRO certification to work parallel and in harmony with other known translation and industry associations or bodies that are also involved in professional certification.
4) The PRO certification should have the same value of Kudoz and other profile features in regard to Proz.com's directory ranking, because right now I find it unfair that only Kudoz points put you up in the Proz.com directory ranking. ▲ Collapse
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| My final thoughts | Mar 17, 2009 |
I find the PRO certification initiative a positive, useful idea to verify a series of minimum requirements of website members - if the following points can be implemented:
1) Open the certification process for non-paying members. Split the membership from the certification, charge extra for certification and allow currently non paying members to get certified.
2) Make it absolutely clear that it has nothing to do with the EN 15038 standard and I would also make i... See more I find the PRO certification initiative a positive, useful idea to verify a series of minimum requirements of website members - if the following points can be implemented:
1) Open the certification process for non-paying members. Split the membership from the certification, charge extra for certification and allow currently non paying members to get certified.
2) Make it absolutely clear that it has nothing to do with the EN 15038 standard and I would also make it clear that PRO certified members have no right to claim that they are EN 15038 certified, if they are not.
3) Make it possible to use other certifications too, such as EN 15038 on the same level as PRO status, i.e. either include all standards/certifications in one group, or make it possible to filter the directory for other certifications too.
4) All processes required for approval and "maintenance" of the PRO certification should be 100% transparent, strict and reliable.
5) The directory ranking needs changing, away from pure Kudos points - other features, such as the ratio of questions answered/points awarded, PRO certification and or other certifications/standards should be reflected in the directory ranking
However, if points 1-4 cannot be implemented, my position is completely different:
Scrap the whole project, it will only damage PROZ.com, its members and the whole profession ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Reply to Nikki | Mar 17, 2009 |
Nikki Graham wrote: Eduardo López Herrero wrote:
When I decided to invest in membership, the P feature was not there. I paid for three years and there's a whole year to go before my membership expires. I feel disappointed as a customer, and I don't think it's an unreasonable claim. The Ps harm my professional image on the site. In case you are unaware, you can ask for a refund of your remaining membership if you are not satisfied with the service provided.
I'm aware, but I don't want out -- ProZ offers an excellent service overall which is not outweighed by the P problem. I just wanted to stress that a commercial site should not do anything that could potentially harm its customers. To put it bluntly, you can't bite the hand that feeds you. If the site would apply restrictions to membership itself, as it has been suggested, it would be a completely different situation.
Eduardo
[Edited at 2009-03-17 09:36 GMT]
| | | | | Reply to Ivette | Mar 17, 2009 |
Hola, pariente lejana.
ICL wrote:
a) That you say that you cannot really opt-out of the PRO iniative because if you do then you are filtered. Again and again, in case you are not aware of this, you are also filtered based on a number of other Proz.com requirement features (such as Kudoz), so what is the difference? (and the big deal?)
I already told you that KudoZ were already there when I joined, so I knew what I was paying for. I hate to say this, but the circularity of the discussion has not been my fault. And, BTW, this whole issue is not a "big deal" for me. Just a "small deal" which deserves some attention.
b) That ProZ has not the means to verify hardly anything. Again, this is a very very subjective opinion, obviously based on no factual data (or none that you have supplied so far)
I'm afraid that the burden of proof would lie with whoever claimed that ProZ actually investigates people to verify all the data on their profiles, because it's absurd to make such assumption. And luckily so. I don't pay ProZ to put me under scrutiny.
Eduardo
| | | | Paul Cohen
Greenland
Local time: 13:49
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | My final thoughts | Mar 17, 2009 |
Thanks everyone for an interesting and stimulating discussion. We touched on a wide range of very interesting points:
1) There are concerns that the P badge may be misinterpreted by outsiders.
2) Changing the name would help clear up any confusion.
3) Certifying a translator's linguistic abilities represents an enormous challeng... See more Thanks everyone for an interesting and stimulating discussion. We touched on a wide range of very interesting points:
1) There are concerns that the P badge may be misinterpreted by outsiders.
2) Changing the name would help clear up any confusion.
3) Certifying a translator's linguistic abilities represents an enormous challenge (see the parallel thread http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom:_translator_coop/130078-p_symbol_who_makes_the_decision_about_competence.html).
4) Based on EN 15038 is not the same as having EN 15038.
5) The decision to make the P badge visible in the directory was made behind closed doors by the P group itself.
6) The P badge is an attempt to solve a far wider problem, namely, that as membership explodes at ProZ.com, it has become increasingly difficult for outsiders to find qualified translators using the directory and profiles.
7) The P badge appears to be a hearty recommendation by proz.com to outsiders, yet most translators would hesitate to recommend a colleague without being intimately familiar with his/her work.
8) Business accountability should be continuously verifiable and there needs to be a system on ProZ.com (a blue board of sorts) where P clients who are dissatisfied with a P badge holder can provide feedback (without an invitation!).
9) To P or not to P: Some members who have well-founded misgivings about the program feel that they don't genuinely have the option of "opting out" (i.e., of not participating) because their lack of a P implies a lack of skill and professionalism to outsiders.
10) Currently, for reasons that have not yet been discussed, the visibility of the P badge in the directory plays only a minor role in outsiders' decisions when searching for a translator.
There will surely be more discussions on these topics in the future.
I've probably missed a few points.
Regards,
Paul ▲ Collapse
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| Final thoughts | Mar 17, 2009 |
Finally I propose changing this P badge with a Penguin badge
| | | | | P failure... | Mar 17, 2009 |
P People failing to "deliver"..., ouch!
If you were a member of ITI, for example, you could request an arbitration... is Proz going to offer this service as well to resolve such issues?
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