| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12] > | Should the "P" symbol be for internal eyes only? Thread poster: Paul Cohen
|
|---|
| Requirements | Mar 13, 2009 |
Paul Cohen wrote:
The "P" badge certifies, among other things, that you maintain "good online citizenship", in other words, you respect the ruleZ of the site and treat your colleagues with respect.
You are right.
Respecting the rules is an important asset in any place or institution. And in this case, as you said, that is considered among other things, like verified credentials, certified experience, positive feedback from clients, peer reviewed sample translations, and so on.
Evrybody can apply. Not anybody can earn it.
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 17:04
French to English
+ ...
Patrick Dotterer wrote:
Anyone can apply to the Certified PRO Network, but it is true that you must be a member in order to participate in the network. Aside from the financial aspect and administrator actions, the screening process is accepting applications. Therefore, if an application does not adequately confirm all three areas of professionalism, the application will be denied, which is not implying anything about the user/member; it is only implying that the candidate did not substantiate all three areas of professionalism during the screening process in their application.
Kind Regards,
Patrick
So what you're saying when you say that the candidate "substantiates" is that the candidate sort of "certifies" themselves? According to the P page, they have to "substantiate" the following competencies (in the translation category):
Translation ability *
1. Competence in source
2. Competence in target
3. Research competence
4. Cultural competence
5. Technical competence
Please tell me how these are substantiated. What kind of information does a translator give you? Clearly membership in an association that rigorously examines candidates to test translation ability is not one of them, judging by most of the P-peoples' profiles. So how does the site determine that a candidate has substantiated translation ability without ever having independently assessed the "substantiated" competencies? Who is substantiating candidates? In an earlier forum on this topic (I believe it was locked) there was some insinuation that the original P-people did the substantiating, but it's very unclear as to who vetted them in the first place. It's all very murky isn't it?
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 17:04
French to English
+ ...
Sergei Leshchinsky wrote: Paul Cohen wrote:
certified as a "pro" by a website that is not a linguistic authority.
I would say certified by a community of linguistic professionals. PRO is a sort of "recognition by peers". Accept it or not. It has more value.
So being "recognized" by people who claim native expertise in languages that clearly are NOT their mother tongues, and skills in language combinations in which they are clearly not competent is somehow more valid than a process of rigorous written examinations that assess translation ability? What Henry is selling is a title that isn't worth the paper it's printed on. You're a PRO translator cos' he says you are?
| | | | Paul Cohen 
Greenland
Local time: 19:04
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | A further clarification on the site may be necessary | Mar 13, 2009 |
Patrick Dotterer wrote:
There are clear FAQs on the site about the Certified PRO Network and even text pop-ups that explain what the "P" signifies for outsourcers to read and go over.
Hi Patrick,
Yes, there are many opportunities to read about the Pro network on the site. But I wonder if our potential customers are aware of this particular aspect:
"Please know that the Certified PRO network is not identifying/tagging "elite" or "high level" translators (although you will find that there obviously are some who are participating in the network); it's purpose is to screen 'applications' and 'profiles' in order to provide a network consisting of professionals who were able to substantiate the three areas of professionalism in their application."
(I've added the bold lettering for emphasis.)
That should sound familiar, Patrick. You wrote it. It was from our correspondence on the Pro network. I assume it's all right to share that information.
I'm very concerned about the image that we convey to potential customers.
I feel that despite the wealth of information that is available on the site, potential clients could still very easily misconstrue the Pro network as something that in fact identifies or tags an "elite" group or a "high level" of translating ability, as you put it. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that this is exactly the impression most of our potential clients have when they come across the "P" badge and the PRO Certificate on members' profiles.
A further clarification on the site may be necessary.
Let's be honest. If the badge, as you said, does not in fact denote an "elite" group or a "high level" of translating ability, then it's really a moot point. Why? Because the Pro badge and the Pro Certificate are obviously designed to impress outsiders and boost the standing of the network's members.
Otherwise it would be meaningless...?
Tina Vonhof:
If the P is not visible, it becomes meaningless.
Would it really be meaningless? Or would it be just as meaningful for network members without the promotional aspect of displaying the badge to the outside world?
| | |
|
|
|
PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 17:04
French to English
+ ...
| This potential client isn't falling for it. | Mar 13, 2009 |
Tina Vonhof wrote:
That doesn't make sense to me. My colleagues on Proz do not need to see the P to know whether or not I'm a professional. It is potential clients who need to see it. If the P is not visible, it becomes meaningless.
Tina, it's meaningless anyway. And worse, it's misleading, which at first glance I thought might conflict with the good citizenship component, but actually, ethics isn't even mentioned!
| | | | | Not surprised the request for directory display was made in the secret P forum | Mar 13, 2009 |
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote: M. Ali Bayraktar wrote: Walter Landesman wrote:
I strongly disagree with this proposal. The P option in directory searches was added after many members requested it in several threads.
Thats not true. There was no request of such application. That was imposed by the site staff. (And there are some theories that they have contacted with group of members before applying it but this was only in theory of course). Without going into the pros and cons of Paul's proposal or the other points raised by M. Ali, I'd just like to point out that there is actually a private forum of Proz-certified Pros (I don't think this is confidential information!) and it was in there that the P option was requested for directory searches - not in the public forums. It was not imposed by staff. [Edited at 2009-03-13 17:08 GMT]
Long live minority rule??
I am not in the least bit surprised to read that the P-members themselves, hidden away in their hidden-away forum, voted to have their P displayed in the directory as well as everywhere else. If the P really was a wheat vs chaff badge (which it is not, since that would indicate a switch to an elitist policy) or a badge awarded by a recognised language authority (nope again), with equal chances for all to pass a standardised test, then I could understand it being displayed as a value-added feature.
The final of the 3 doors one has to pass through on the way to P-badge heaven can turn into a blockade against those who have ever locked horns with the powers that be. Does any official language authority have a 'good citizenship' requirement like the one here?
If you leave the site, the P stays behind. After all, what 'good citizen' would leave anyway?
I see the P as a tool to marginalise the 'bad citizens' and reward the 'good citizens'. It really can't be based on translation skills and ability, because that would infer the elitist policy I mentioned above, which is the opposite of what Proz is aiming for:
How good of a translator does one have to be to be admitted into the program? Is the idea that only elite translators will be admitted? No. The screening process seeks to establish only that an applicant meets or exceeds certain minimum professional standards in the three screening areas (translation ability, business reliability and “citizenship”). In other words, the level screened for is not “elite” but “adequate”. http://www.proz.com/pro-tag/info/faq
Some of the best translators on the site now display the P but so do some of the worst. Some have shown their skills by answering Kudoz, others have never been near Kudoz at all. Some have been on the site for years, others seem to have got the P as soon as they joined.
So what is it, I wonder, that they all have in common...
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 13:04
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Patrick Dotterer wrote:
Anyone can apply to the Certified PRO Network, but it is true that you must be a member in order to participate in the network. Aside from the financial aspect and administrator actions, the screening process is accepting applications. Therefore, if an application does not adequately confirm all three areas of professionalism, the application will be denied, which is not implying anything about the user/member; it is only implying that the candidate did not substantiate all three areas of professionalism during the screening process in their application.
Kind Regards,
Patrick
Whenever I click on "Apply now", I only receive the following message:
"Company application coming soon!"
I also should have received a star (R.I.P.) after more than fours years of membership, but I didn't.
I provided several reviews for at least four colleagues in order to receive their badge.
Yet I have to remain badge-less...
Personally, I don't care if I have a badge next to my name or not. That not having a badge might give the impression that any application of mine has been denied however is starting to irk me.
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 17:04
French to English
+ ...
| Verified....certified....peer reviewed - sounds impressive | Mar 13, 2009 |
Walter Landesman wrote:
Respecting the rules is an important asset in any place or institution. And in this case, as you said, that is considered among other things, like verified credentials, certified experience, positive feedback from clients, peer reviewed sample translations, and so on.
Evrybody can apply. Not anybody can earn it.
Certified experience? Certified by whom. Certified experience? What does that mean? Ten years? Two million words? Positive feedback from clients? How would you get positive feedback from my clients - who they are is none of this site's business. And the big one: peer reviewed sample translations. Uh huh. And just who are these peers and what qualifies them to review candidates' translations?
| | |
|
|
|
PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 17:04
French to English
+ ...
Paul Cohen wrote:
I feel that despite the wealth of information that is available on the site, potential clients could still very easily misconstrue the Pro network as something that in fact identifies or tags an "elite" group or a "high level" of translating ability, as you put it. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that this is exactly the impression most of our potential clients have when they come across the "P" badge and the PRO Certificate on members' profiles.
the promotional aspect of displaying the badge to the outside world?
And I'd be willing to bet that this was exactly the site owner's intent in instituting this ridiculous attempt to win members some kind of recognition. It's wilful misrepresentation.
| | | | Paul Cohen
Greenland
Local time: 19:04
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Do I have an invisible "P"? No. | Mar 13, 2009 |
Walter Landesman wrote: Paul Cohen wrote:
I'm already hiding my "P". Really? How did you do it, Paul? According to Patrick that is not possible: I checked your profile and OK, the P is not there. But under "standardized information" there is no trace either, just a N/A. I`m so confused. It sounds really weird to me. 
Sorry, Walter, I wasn't being perfectly clear. You're right, it's not possible to hide your "P" if you are a member of the network.
Technically, I don't have a "P". I'm not a member. I was accepted but I had second thoughts and have not yet agreed to the terms and conditions. I'm one click away from a "P". You could say I'm waiting in the wings. Every time I click on the button for info about the "Certified PRO Network" it says "Congratulations, you are ProZ Certified PRO!"
If you send me an email, I'd be happy to send you back a screenshot of my profile showing the "accepted" status.
| | | | lexical
Spain
Local time: 22:04
Portuguese to English
| potentially misleading consumers, I would argue | Mar 13, 2009 |
The most disturbing aspect of this "Certified PRO" business is the element of potential deception. The choice of carefully selected 'weasel words' like "certified" and "pro" are very likely to to be misunderstood by outsourcers as meaning that the translator concerned has been certified as a competent translator by a properly constituted qualifying body. Patrick Dotterer may protest that outsourcers can check the FAQ, but it is only almost at the end of the FAQ that it is admitted that this so-c... See more The most disturbing aspect of this "Certified PRO" business is the element of potential deception. The choice of carefully selected 'weasel words' like "certified" and "pro" are very likely to to be misunderstood by outsourcers as meaning that the translator concerned has been certified as a competent translator by a properly constituted qualifying body. Patrick Dotterer may protest that outsourcers can check the FAQ, but it is only almost at the end of the FAQ that it is admitted that this so-called "certification" has no legal standing whatsoever.
As M. Ali Bayraktar and Paul have pointed out, this claimed "Certified PRO" status is actually of no value whatsoever in the translation industry. Proz.com is not a recognised certification or examination body, merely a commercial website - basically, a moneymaking whizz. Proz.com does not speak for the translator community and has no locus -or, indeed, the necessary expertise - to award any kind of recognition. Its big red "P" has no more validity as evidence of a translator's competence than a similar badge awarded by any other commercial website, for example Amazon or the site from which I buy my handmade Belgian chocolates.
Which brings us back to the question of potential deception. I'm not accusing anybody of breaking the law but it seems to me that advertising oneself as "certified" by a body not qualified to do so - or projecting oneself as an organisation that is qualified to award such "certification" - is sailing very close to the wind. In most developed countries, misleading consumers is viewed as criminally liable and it would be quite interesting to see this tested in the courts of some European countries that have strict views on certification of any kind.
Finally, can I say that I find it quite sad that some people seem to place such store by a "status" that might just as well have been awarded by Walmart for all the intrinsic value it has. ▲ Collapse
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 17:04
French to English
+ ...
lexical wrote:
The most disturbing aspect of this "Certified PRO" business is the element of potential deception. The choice of carefully selected 'weasel words' like "certified" and "pro" are very likely to to be misunderstood by outsourcers as meaning that the translator concerned has been certified as a competent translator by a properly constituted qualifying body. Patrick Dotterer may protest that outsourcers can check the FAQ, but it is only almost at the end of the FAQ that it is admitted that this so-called "certification" has no legal standing whatsoever.
As M. Ali Bayraktar and Paul have pointed out, this claimed "Certified PRO" status is actually of no value whatsoever in the translation industry. Proz.com is not a recognised certification or examination body, merely a commercial website - basically, a moneymaking whizz. Proz.com does not speak for the translator community and has no locus -or, indeed, the necessary expertise - to award any kind of recognition. Its big red "P" has no more validity as evidence of a translator's competence than a similar badge awarded by any other commercial website, for example Amazon or the site from which I buy my handmade Belgian chocolates.
Which brings us back to the question of potential deception. I'm not accusing anybody of breaking the law but it seems to me that advertising oneself as "certified" by a body not qualified to do so - or projecting oneself as an organisation that is qualified to award such "certification" - is sailing very close to the wind. In most developed countries, misleading consumers is viewed as criminally liable and it would be quite interesting to see this tested in the courts of some European countries that have strict views on certification of any kind.
Finally, can I say that I find it quite sad that some people seem to place such store by a "status" that might just as well have been awarded by Walmart for all the intrinsic value it has.
Agreed!
| | |
|
|
|
Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:04
Spanish to English
Would you find the scheme more acceptable if the name was changed to, for example, "Proz.com Rated PRO", or something else that didn't use the word certified?
| | | | lexical
Spain
Local time: 22:04
Portuguese to English
| why "rated"? | Mar 13, 2009 |
Nikki Graham wrote:
Would you find the scheme more acceptable if the name was changed to, for example, "Proz.com Rated PRO", or something else that didn't use the word certified?
A more interesting question is: why would anyone want to be "rated" or whatever you choose to call it by a mere website?
In a way, the now defunct gold stars were more honest because they simply implied you were a loyal customer. I'd even accept that from my Belgian chocolates website.
[Edited at 2009-03-13 21:00 GMT]
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 17:04
French to English
+ ...
| In a word, no | Mar 13, 2009 |
Nikki Graham wrote:
Would you find the scheme more acceptable if the name was changed to, for example, "Proz.com Rated PRO", or something else that didn't use the word certified?
(if it's me you're asking!) - I think the whole idea is ridiculous - as lexical pointed out, the site is in no position to rate, rank, certify or vet translation ability or competency, to say nothing of citizenship or administrative powers. And as I've maintained since its sorry inception, it's deliberately misleading.
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Should the "P" symbol be for internal eyes only? | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
| | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
