| გვერდების რაოდენობა თემაში: < [1 2 3] > | Could we have a linguistics forum dedicated to English? თემის ავტორი: RHELLER
|
|---|
Ken Cox 
Local time: 05:22
გერმანული -> ინგლისური
+ ...
| my two bits' worth | Oct 22, 2005 |
Perhaps my understanding of the meaning of 'linguistics' is a bit old-fashioned (it's the same as the Oxford dico definition: 'the scientific study of language and its structure, including the study of grammar, syntax, and phonetics'), which is not quite the same as what most Proz questions in the English monolingual area are about: English usage and the meaning of English words and expressions (with only a minority of questions directly related to grammar or syntax, and practically none related... See more Perhaps my understanding of the meaning of 'linguistics' is a bit old-fashioned (it's the same as the Oxford dico definition: 'the scientific study of language and its structure, including the study of grammar, syntax, and phonetics'), which is not quite the same as what most Proz questions in the English monolingual area are about: English usage and the meaning of English words and expressions (with only a minority of questions directly related to grammar or syntax, and practically none related to theoretical aspects of English).
If I understand Rita right, what she is proposing is a forum dedicated to discussing (and answering) these questions as an alternative to English monolingual Proz questions. IMO this could be more useful than Proz questions if the forum is well organised (by category, for example) and moderated well and actively; otherwise it will probably become as fragmented and chaotic as just about any other unmoderated (or loosely moderated) forum, with the result that the only way to find something you might be interested in is to use a search tool (and you can do that with Proz questions already, at least in principle).
Incidentally, the Kudoz format has at least one very useful feature that is missing in typical formum formats: the ability to display peer comments together with the peer contributions that occasioned them, which is much easier to comprehend (or much more communicative if you will) than a simple list of entries in chronological order of posting (even with strings), and the restriction on comment length keeps a lid on verbose comments. Maybe the solution is to change the name of the the English monolingual Proz 'pair' to 'English language forum', without Kudoz points or grading...
By the way, I didn't write 'Pr.z.com', but just 'Pr.z' (with an 'o' instead of '.'); some overzealous code on the site apparently converted it.
[Edited at 2005-10-22 23:19]
[Edited at 2005-10-22 23:25] ▲ Collapse
| | | | RHELLER
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 21:22
ფრანგული -> ინგლისური
+ ...
თემის ავტორი | I "agree" with Kenneth :-) | Oct 22, 2005 |
[quote]Kenneth Cox wrote:
If I understand Rita right, what she is proposing is a forum dedicated to discussing (and answering) these questions as an alternative to English monolingual Proz questions. IMO this could be more useful than Proz questions if the forum is well organised (by category, for example)
-------------------
I could cite many examples of English monolingual questions that went "bad" but even more important than avoiding acrimony (as Will said) is having undefined space to express oneself.
I often find myself using the asker box because I want to make a comment that is neither a peer grade nor requesting further info. I just want to talk! - I do think that I am adding something useful, otherwise I wouldn't bother.
This results in ridiculous amounts of text in the asker box which is really not helpful to the glossary IMO, but would be quite appropriate for a forum.
more later
| | | | Jeff Allen
საფრანგეთი
Local time: 05:22
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
| English language vs General linguistics forum | Oct 23, 2005 |
Marcus Malabad wrote:
It's ultimately Henry's decision. I could also lend my support if it's a meritorious endeavor. I went back to my original posting when the Ling. forum was opened. It was said in it that this forum is open to any and all types of discussion on all the subfields of Linguistics. It is also a given that the language of discussion is English. Discussions in any other language are subsumed under the respective non-English forum.
A cursory glance at all 6 or so pages of postings in this forum will also reveal that the predominant subject is the English language (followed closely by the psychology of language). So people have already been using this forum for the very purpose you describe. I continue to see no reason for opening a separate forum just for English as we already have one, this one. Even if someone posts an English question about, say, the use of "tu/vous" in the French language, the (English) discussion should remain here. If the question were posted in French, then I'd transfer it to the French forum.
Kenneth Cox wrote:
If I understand Rita right, what she is proposing is a forum dedicated to discussing (and answering) these questions as an alternative to English monolingual Proz questions. IMO this could be more useful than Proz questions if the forum is well organised (by category, for example)
Rita Heller wrote:
I could cite many examples of English monolingual questions that went "bad" but even more important than avoiding acrimony (as Will said) is having undefined space to express oneself.
I often find myself using the asker box because I want to make a comment that is neither a peer grade nor requesting further info. I just want to talk! - I do think that I am adding something useful, otherwise I wouldn't bother.
This results in ridiculous amounts of text in the asker box which is really not helpful to the glossary IMO, but would be quite appropriate for a forum.
It seems to me important to distinguish between:
1. language as a means of communication for expressing oneself in a forum
2. a specific language as the topic of discussion
3. linguistics
For 1 above, English is the general medium of communication for all ProZ forums except a number of language-specific forums. However, writing in a language in those forums does not mean that one is writing "about" those languages, but can be simply the case of using those languages to express ideas on something not related to language or linguistics.
For 2 above, Rita seems to be requesting exactly this, an "English language" forum which covers word meaning, terminology, etc. The questions and answers and discussions would most certainly be in 1 above (that is, in English).
As for 3, the areas/Levels of linguistics are defined at:
http://www.proz.com/post/190023#190023
Questions relating to English linguistics, or French linguistics, or Arabic linguistics, or cross-language linguistics would remain in the current "linguistics" forum. When the discussion is communicated in English, then it is in the Linguistics forum. If it is in another language that is supported by ProZ, then it goes in the appropriate language forum.
The Linguistics forum allows discussion beyond asking and answering "surface level" questions (these being "how/what do you say") by allowing participants to discuss "why" it is said that way, based on the history of language, languages in contact, sociological and psychological constraints, language typologies, with the possibility of investigating any of the various subfields of linguistics into account.
It is normal that an English language forum would have more traffic than a General linguistics forum. Yet, each of such forums have their place at ProZ.
Jeff
http://www.geocities.com/jeffallenpubs/about-jeffallen.htm
| | | | Roomy Naqvy
ინდოეთი
Local time: 09:52
ინგლისური -> ჰინდი
+ ...
| welcome proposal | Oct 23, 2005 |
It is a welcome proposal to open a Linguistics forum that focusses on English. Good idea.
| | |
|
|
|
RHELLER
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 21:22
ფრანგული -> ინგლისური
+ ...
თემის ავტორი | Formulating the poll question | Oct 23, 2005 |
Possibility:
Would you be interested in reading or participating in a forum (in English) that specializes in English syntax, grammar, terminology, and slang? (No points, no peer grading, just questions, answers, and comments. Open to all.)
| | | | transparx
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 23:22
ინგლისური -> იტალიური
+ ...
[Edited at 2005-10-29 08:12]
| | | | RHELLER
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 21:22
ფრანგული -> ინგლისური
+ ...
თემის ავტორი | Related questions: monolingual kudoz | Oct 23, 2005 |
I appreciate everyone's reflections.
Of course, linguistics is a broad subject. What part of that can be handled in kudoz? Perhaps if the scope is narrowed, the situation would improve.
Many prozians translate from English and use monolingual kudoz in order to understand the nuances of their text. Then there are the non-native speakers who attempt to translate into English and are seeking editorial and grammatical help.
What was the original intent for... See more I appreciate everyone's reflections.
Of course, linguistics is a broad subject. What part of that can be handled in kudoz? Perhaps if the scope is narrowed, the situation would improve.
Many prozians translate from English and use monolingual kudoz in order to understand the nuances of their text. Then there are the non-native speakers who attempt to translate into English and are seeking editorial and grammatical help.
What was the original intent for monolingual kudoz?
Last year, colleague and moderator Kim Metzger posted a related forum
http://www.proz.com/post/182962#182962
Perhaps we should take the time to look at the specific criteria involved.
I would be interested in hearing from the English monolingual moderators, since they often are the ones who sort these things out and I am sure it is not easy. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Linguistics forum versus Usage forums | Oct 23, 2005 |
or possibly fora
If I may presume to summarise - the request appears is essentially one for a forum to discuss usage.
Currently, for English, this, if it happens at all, takes place either
a) under the kudoz format, which has limitations in terms of two-way or more-way discussion - you can answer, you can respond to others comments - after that, you have to use the Ask the Answer box, which it isn'... See more or possibly fora
If I may presume to summarise - the request appears is essentially one for a forum to discuss usage.
Currently, for English, this, if it happens at all, takes place either
a) under the kudoz format, which has limitations in terms of two-way or more-way discussion - you can answer, you can respond to others comments - after that, you have to use the Ask the Answer box, which it isn't really for.
or
b) in Linguistics (for "the science of language"), where people don't appear go very often, and it gets lost in loads of other postings on a variety of subjects.
The only non-English forum I ever visit is French, and that too has postings about usage mixed up with other stuff - today there have been postings about Canadian French and maternity pay for the self-employed - personally, I can see the value in having such subjects split into different areas.
So why not have "Usage" forums for "major" languages initially (*), expanded if demand requires to the "less major" languages? If it takes off, great; if it doesn't, quietly shuffle them off to Linguistics for English and the the appropriate other Language forum for the others....
(*) Definition of major to be decided: could I initially propose the top 10 languages in terms of being either source or target for kudoz questions over the past 12 months? ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
sarahl (X)
Local time: 20:22
ინგლისური -> ფრანგული
+ ...
Charlie Bavington wrote:
So why not have "Usage" forums for "major" languages initially (*), expanded if demand requires to the "less major" languages? If it takes off, great; if it doesn't, quietly shuffle them off to Linguistics for English and the the appropriate other Language forum for the others....
(*) Definition of major to be decided: could I initially propose the top 10 languages in terms of being either source or target for kudoz questions over the past 12 months?
Charlie,
The way we see it, such forums/a already exist for every language but English, they're called Non-English forums. The contents of the threads posted on those are quite varied as you can see. The only language that does not have such a flexible forum so far is... English.
English usage sounds good to me, I can already recommend a moderator (je ne veux nommer personne mais suivez mon regard).
| | | | Maria Karra
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 23:22
წევრი (2000)
ბერძნული -> ინგლისური
+ ...
| non-English forums | Oct 24, 2005 |
sarahl wrote:
The way we see it, such forums/a already exist for every language but English, they're called Non-English forums. The contents of the threads posted on those are quite varied as you can see. The only language that does not have such a flexible forum so far is... English.
I never saw non-English forums that way; for example I don't see the Greek forum as a forum for discussing the Greek language, but as a forum for discussions in Greek. Questions and answers on the Greek language belong in the Greek monolingual KudoZ section.
I agree that there isn't that much space in KudoZ for long discussions, and I believe that's intentional.
English usage sounds good to me
Why can't we use the Linguistics forum but simply add descriptive titles to our posts? E.g. "Syntax question: ....." or "Grammar question: ...", or what you propose Sarah (English usage:...). That way postings will be easier to track.
Maria
| | | | juvera
Local time: 04:22
ინგლისური -> უნგრული
+ ...
| Maria is right | Oct 24, 2005 |
The non-English forums are not discussing the language they are written in any more than the English forum. They discuss anything and everything you may find in the English forum, perhaps in a more localised way.
Also, everybody has the opportunity to read and answer at least one more forum written in another language here, otherwise they wouldn't be able to translate.
In fact, the English forum is more open to discussion about the language itself than any of the other ones ... See more The non-English forums are not discussing the language they are written in any more than the English forum. They discuss anything and everything you may find in the English forum, perhaps in a more localised way.
Also, everybody has the opportunity to read and answer at least one more forum written in another language here, otherwise they wouldn't be able to translate.
In fact, the English forum is more open to discussion about the language itself than any of the other ones because more people read it and able to contribute to it.
There is no reason not to propose a linguistic question with an appropriate title here, and it would be easy enough to find for those interested in the subject.
More division, more compartmentalization, more boxes, more restriction, more "why didn't you propose this question at the appropriate place"?
If you have an English forum, then ALL other languages shall have to have the same. That is democracy.
Then you will demand an English forum for Old English, Middle English, American English, UK English, slang, need I carry on?
I have an other suggestion. Start an English linguistic website on its' own, - not on ProZ, which is for all languages - where really serious discussions can take place about all aspects of the English language and not others, because that is the essence of what you are after. I would wholly support that, because anybody can do that for their own language(s) if they wish. ▲ Collapse
| | | | transparx
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 23:22
ინგლისური -> იტალიური
+ ...
Actually, I think I agree with Maria Karra and Juvera after all.
| | |
|
|
|
RHELLER
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 21:22
ფრანგული -> ინგლისური
+ ...
თემის ავტორი | new and interesting example | Dec 4, 2005 |
I am posting this link for discussion/reflection - I hope participants will not get defensive.
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1198317?sp=h
Should translators "precede" dictionaries?
Should answerers consider that their advice may have professional consequences?
| | | |
Rita Heller wrote:
I am posting this link for discussion/reflection - I hope participants will not get defensive.
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1198317?sp=h
Should translators "precede" dictionaries?
Should answerers consider that their advice may have professional consequences?
Hi Rita,
Did you mean to post this here (I can kind of see the connection)? If so, it also seems like it would fit in (very well) with another one of your topics: http://www.proz.com/topic/39377
BTW - Thanks for drawing my attention to the question. You already know my opinion on the matter...
Best regards,
Derek
[Edited at 2005-12-04 18:22]
| | | | RHELLER
შეერთებული შტატები
Local time: 21:22
ფრანგული -> ინგლისური
+ ...
თემის ავტორი | they are definitely related | Dec 4, 2005 |
Hi Derek,
Thanks for trying to keep track
I think I posted it here because it makes the point again...we could and should use this forum to have these discussions.
Although some may feel that the delineated kudoz format is a good thing because it restricts some long comments, I am often unable to properly make my point on kudoz due to character limitations.
Besides, I know for a ... See more Hi Derek,
Thanks for trying to keep track
I think I posted it here because it makes the point again...we could and should use this forum to have these discussions.
Although some may feel that the delineated kudoz format is a good thing because it restricts some long comments, I am often unable to properly make my point on kudoz due to character limitations.
Besides, I know for a fact that some prozians have stopped checking the English monolingual pair because they feel that certain askers are impolite or are taking advantage of them.
Those people could still come here to read the latest relevant examples
IMO English monolingual kudoz should NOT be a free editing or research service. Translators need to learn how to do those things sooner or later. (that is another potential forum topic) Rather, it should serve to help translators understand their source text. Questions often deal with idioms or slang; some of which can be clarified almost instantaneously. Others may need lots of discussion and may get more exposure in a forum.
The particular link I posted was a question dealing with "is this one word or two?"; incidentally, the discussion turned to whether the term in question is actually recognized. I have always felt that we should use terms in dictionaries but I see that many do not agree with that premise. So, let's discuss it! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | გვერდების რაოდენობა თემაში: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Could we have a linguistics forum dedicated to English? | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
| | Trados Studio 2022 Freelance | The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.
Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop
and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
